Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

Message
Author
AtomKraft
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2549
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:05 am
Location: Planet Claire
Gender:
Age: 63

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#21 Post by AtomKraft » Wed May 20, 2020 9:55 am

Start of Speculation alert.
This looks a lot like a turn back gone wrong- perhaps attempted by a gifted and confident aero pilot.
End of Speculation alert.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#22 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu May 21, 2020 10:33 am

AtomKraft wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:55 am
Start of Speculation alert.
This looks a lot like a turn back gone wrong- perhaps attempted by a gifted and confident aero pilot.
End of Speculation alert.
What kind of world do we live in if a pilot can't speculate or at least post a Metar? You may very well be onto something here.

A case of familiarity breeding contempt but extremely unwise at such a low altitude if it was attempted.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#23 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu May 21, 2020 10:53 am

Boac wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:45 am
As a keyboard warrior (admittedly with a single engine failure and an ejection behind me.

This really is all a matter for the investigation and thankfully we have a living pilot to answer. The other questions that need to be answered are why was control lost before the ejection and why eject so late. Again, the prime witness can answer. Questions I would have expected after such an accident.
Never let actual personal experience of, and intimate knowledge of the matters under discussion, get in the way of other's wild speculation! ;)))

No doubt the pilot will tell all in the fullness of time. I have read differing accounts of his medical condition of medical condition of his low altitude escape. I wish him well.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#24 Post by Boac » Thu May 21, 2020 11:01 am

I have read now't other than 'non life-threatening'. I guess by the sound of it, judging by the late seat separation of No2 that he got "1 swing and crash" before hitting the roof. Ouch. I had 11 seconds on the chute 'fore I went into the trees. Luxury.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#25 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu May 21, 2020 12:06 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:01 am
I have read now't other than 'non life-threatening'. I guess by the sound of it, judging by the late seat separation of No2 that he got "1 swing and crash" before hitting the roof. Ouch. I had 11 seconds on the chute 'fore I went into the trees. Luxury.
A question I have always meant to ask somebody who knows about these things. Even with the "luxury" of 11 seconds canopy time, the proximity to (I presume) a sudden fireball must have been attention getting if not downright frightening. Are/were the chutes partially steerable?
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#26 Post by Boac » Thu May 21, 2020 12:18 pm

Not effectively. My focus was more on where my little pink body was actually heading than the 'fireball' - and protecting my nether regions from inquisitive branches. :))

User avatar
CharlieOneSix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5005
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:58 pm
Location: NE Scotland
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#27 Post by CharlieOneSix » Thu May 21, 2020 10:12 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:06 pm
..... the proximity to (I presume) a sudden fireball must have been attention getting if not downright frightening......
One of my very good friends ejected from a Hunter on take off at Lossie when the engine failed. His parachute deployed but sadly he landed in the fireball. It was his third ejection, the other two being from Scimitars - one a hydraulic failure and control lock on finals to Ark Royal and the second when his wingmate confirmed he was on fire.
The helicopter pilots' mantra: If it hasn't gone wrong then it's just about to...
https://www.glenbervie-weather.org

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#28 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat May 23, 2020 6:15 am

Some sensible commentary from a former Canadian Air Force pilot...

https://infotel.ca/newsitem/snowbird-pi ... ys/it73476
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#29 Post by Boac » Sun May 24, 2020 9:46 am

I am puzzled as to the exact type of bang seat fitted. Everything I have read says it is a "0/60kt" seat which is not dissimilar to the Jet Provost MB seat "0/90kt" and suggests a non-rocket assisted seat. The pictures of the actual ejection show clear smoke trails from both seats suggesting rocket assistance. Anyone know the facts about the Snowbird seats?

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#30 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun May 24, 2020 10:47 am

http://www.ejectionsite.com/ct114seat.htm

I have no idea if this was the model fitted in the aircraft that crashed in this case....

One of the images of the injection doing the rounds shows one of the crew separating from the seat... clearly both crew were well below optimal ejection speed and altitude...

In situ.JPG
In situ.JPG (53.14 KiB) Viewed 481 times
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#31 Post by Boac » Sun May 24, 2020 11:33 am

One of the images of the injection
Got a link?

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#32 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun May 24, 2020 12:18 pm

Boac wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:33 am
One of the images of the injection
Got a link?
It was a still that I saw yesterday. Kicking myself for not snipping it. Looking for it right now.

The image came from this video...



The image was an enlarged digitally enhanced view of this frame.... at the top you can see the pilot with drogue separating from his seat while below, very low the other seat shows no such separation.
Canadair ejection.JPG
Canadair ejection.JPG (13.62 KiB) Viewed 468 times
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#33 Post by Boac » Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 pm

Very difficult to make much of that image, TGG. I assume the lower is the unfortunate lady, and there does not appear to be much of an upward vector in the smoke trial from the seat there. I think the lower 'lump' is the seat and would guess the bits above it are the lady separating, but who knows. Reports were that her seat landed very near her - or more likely vice versa. The upper 'bit' is also puzzling, since the black bit does not appear to be coming from where the end of the seat trail is. Whether he did an early manual separation or not we will find out in due course. On the MB seat, separation was immediately after rocket burn-out.

User avatar
boing
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 am
Location: Beautful Oregon USA
Gender:
Age: 77

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#34 Post by boing » Sun May 24, 2020 1:28 pm

I looked at the smoke trail. I was wondering whether this was some sort of smoke marker for rescue purposes. Unless the aircraft were upgraded I would be pretty sure that they were equipped originally with bang seats instead of rocket seats. The ground level/90kts/no rate of descent suggests a bang seat but the seat in the still photo does not look like a Martin Baker product.

.
the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#35 Post by Boac » Sun May 24, 2020 1:37 pm

No, a different "0/60kt" seat made by 'Weber' http://www.ejectionsite.com/ct114seat.htm

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#36 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun May 24, 2020 2:32 pm

No particular new insight here but an ex Snowbird pilot reflects on the accident and talks sense...

Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
boing
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 am
Location: Beautful Oregon USA
Gender:
Age: 77

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#37 Post by boing » Mon May 25, 2020 4:33 am

You have probably seen this already but it gives an idea of how busy things get and how decisive action is needed. You would not want to be in the seat for those last few seconds. By the way, this was not an F16 it was a Hawk trainer as mentioned in the comments. This aircraft probably had rocket seats.



.
the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

User avatar
Dushan
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1479
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:23 pm
Location: Right wing
Gender:
Age: 71

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#38 Post by Dushan » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:40 pm

Looks like bird strike could be the cause.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snowb ... -1.5593259
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#39 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:14 am

Dushan wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:40 pm
Looks like bird strike could be the cause.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snowb ... -1.5593259
And with respect to the outcome of the accident causal chain.
The report's focus on the ejection system is significant.

The roughly 50-year-old planes were equipped originally with Weber CL-41 ejection seats which have since been modified.

Snowbirds safety system was supposed to be upgraded
The safety system was due to be replaced in 2015 with a more modern version during the life-extension program for the Snowbirds fleet. That hasn't happened.

The Department of National Defence (DND) was asked Monday whether any further modifications had been made to the aircraft's existing seat, or if the seat had been replaced.

A spokeswoman said an evaluation of a replacement was conducted in 2016.

"It was determined that the most effective way to improve the system would be through a parachute upgrade program, which will identify and assess candidate canopy designs, perform testing for airworthiness clearance, and eventually implement a new parachute system in the CT-114," said Jessica Lamirande in an email.

"We are still very early in the project."

'Anomalies' with the ejector seat
Questions were asked about the ejection system following the crash of another Snowbird jet in October 2019. The pilot in that crash reported "anomalies" with the seat during the incident. It's still not clear what happened during that tour in Georgia, but the pilot managed to survive the loss of the jet.

Almost 11 years ago, the entire Snowbird fleet was grounded because of problems with the ejection seat system.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#40 Post by Boac » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:29 pm

It is concerning that there is no news anywhere at present about the accident. With a surviving pilot (able to talk) the enquiry should by now know what caused the loss of control, the late ejections and subsequent fatality.

Post Reply