Boris Force One

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ExSp33db1rd
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Re: Boris Force One

#41 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:01 am

# 32 Beat me to it. ( being a one time Boy Scout, when we were taught that - not about aircraft of course, not many about then, but flagstaff and broad white stripe )

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Re: Boris Force One

#42 Post by Ex-Ascot » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:52 am

Did a VIP flight out of Kuwait. Awaiting pax I pointed out to the Air Attache that half the union flags on the terminal were upside down. Don't recall any action from the rag heads.
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Re: Boris Force One

#43 Post by Woody » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:26 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:52 am
Did a VIP flight out of Kuwait. Awaiting pax I pointed out to the Air Attache that half the union flags on the terminal were upside down. Don't recall any action from the rag heads.
I was visiting Oslo once, the week before a State Visit from HMQ and PP, mentioned to the Defence Attache that lots of the Union Flags on Karl Johans Gate were upside down, but I was sure nobody else would notice :ymdevil:, never seen the blood drain from someone’s face quite so quickly.
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Re: Boris Force One

#44 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:18 am

What an improvement. Bloody ridiculous our Royals being delivered in a grey monstrosity.
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Re: Boris Force One

#45 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:01 am

I may make a serious mistake (worth offering the beers on the next meeting) but I thought the head of state is the head of the armed forces as well so Prince Charles is using a piece of equipment borrowed from his mother (the current head of armed forces in helping the future one).

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Re: Boris Force One

#46 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:27 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:01 am
I may make a serious mistake (worth offering the beers on the next meeting) but I thought the head of state is the head of the armed forces as well so Prince Charles is using a piece of equipment borrowed from his mother (the current head of armed forces in helping the future one).
My dear chap, I think I know what you are saying but HRH has to pay for it. Even if HMQ uses it she has to pay. Think how much cheaper a Queen's Flight Andover would have been or even a 146. There was/is a lot of creative accountancy involved in costing Royal and VIP flights. It varied from just the cost of the fuel and landing charges to the cost of the crew their training, pensions and your guard dog food whilst you were away, depending who wanted the aircraft or the circumstances. Taking HRH PA to L.A. expensive, picking up HRH The Princess of Wales from Paris was probably free.
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Re: Boris Force One

#47 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:13 am

As Ex-A said, lots of creative accounting. Back in the 70s we had rates for the Nimrod.

If it was an inter-department charge, say to Department of Energy, it was about £2,100 per hour. If it was a non-governmental hire it was around £5,250 per hour. The fee could be waived if there was a PR advantage to the MOD/RAF.

WE weren't the only ones into creative accounting. We would fly BBC Journos to Iceland during the Cod War - free to the BBC - and they would claim milage allowance for miles flown. (I was told)

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Re: Boris Force One

#48 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:35 am

Time to take account of the economics of these straitened times. Queen to fly Club class with BA.

If the Royal family want their own aircraft then may I make a modest proposal and suggest a Cessna 172. Trustworthy, with a venerable reputation. The Queen's Cessna, it even has a certain royal ring to it, but that may just be a sticking starter motor!

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Re: Boris Force One

#49 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:38 am

In the case of Boris Johnson then surely the aircraft should be Boris Farce 1,2,3,4.... ad infinitum...
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Re: Boris Force One

#50 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:14 pm

Apart from a helicopter, "very interesting, we won't do that again", I wonder what was the smallest aircraft she has flown in?

In the late 70s she was slated to do a tour in East Africa. We were briefed to provide SAR cover along the route. For overland SAR the Nimrod was cleared to carry 6 CLE (Containers, Land Equipment), a hinged metal cylinder with parachute and crush plate.

I was asked to select the content which would mainly consist of medical and signalling equipment, water and shelter. I also had to select the colour as they were actually in dark earth colour - very handy.

Having sorted out the colour and content we got the good news. The entire RAF inventory was THREE. The majority had been used in Holland.

I don't think the Op went ahead.

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Re: Boris Force One

#51 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:00 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:27 am
Rwy in Sight wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:01 am
I may make a serious mistake (worth offering the beers on the next meeting) but I thought the head of state is the head of the armed forces as well so Prince Charles is using a piece of equipment borrowed from his mother (the current head of armed forces in helping the future one).
My dear chap, I think I know what you are saying but HRH has to pay for it. Even if HMQ uses it she has to pay. Think how much cheaper a Queen's Flight Andover would have been or even a 146. There was/is a lot of creative accountancy involved in costing Royal and VIP flights. It varied from just the cost of the fuel and landing charges to the cost of the crew their training, pensions and your guard dog food whilst you were away, depending who wanted the aircraft or the circumstances. Taking HRH PA to L.A. expensive, picking up HRH The Princess of Wales from Paris was probably free.
Thanks for the answer. I didn't know there was a charge for the Royal Family members even for the Queen. With your last phrase I take you mean the Princess of Wales trip back to London in early September 1997. Just a question which I am not sure if it is appropriate: did HMQ as Head of the Armed Forces may dictate the term of use of the aircraft and who drives them?

A question to all of you: is there an agreement on the size of country beyond which a dedicated fleet of AC is justified? I take M. Marcon is justified flying around on an A340 to promote aircraft assembled in France.

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Re: Boris Force One

#52 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:41 pm

RiS, very much a vanity thing. Smaller the country, the bigger the willy.

https://simpleflying.com/top-head-of-state-aircraft/

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Re: Boris Force One

#53 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:00 am

RiS
did HMQ as Head of the Armed Forces may dictate the term of use of the aircraft and who drives them?
No, it went to a tasking committee which in my latter years I went to every month. If the demand was greater than the resources it went on rank. Obviously if HMQ wanted a jet she got one and it went down from there. Not sure where the PM stood with the minor Royals. As for the driver on The Queens Flight the senior Royals had their own crews. (Kitty1, HMQ, Kitty2 was minor Royals, Kitty3, HRH PP, Kitty4, HRH PC) On the VC10 we had three Royal and VIP crews and I scheduled them. HMQ always asked for me of course =))

Interesting one, was sitting in the office on The Queen's Flight and got a phone call to ops from the Royal Pavilion at LHR saying HRH Princess xxx is here but there is no aircraft. That particular household was useless. They had booked a flight then cancelled it then the engagement was back on but they had forgotten to re-book it. We scrambled a jet, ATC gave us direct to finals 26 she wasn't that late in the end. The aircraft were always ready to go apart from catering. Think we found a bag of crisps and a bottle of beer from somewhere.
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Re: Boris Force One

#54 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:34 am

Ex-A what is the feeling to fly the (not for) the HMQ. We had a standing joke in the AF about the T-41: when it was flown by a cadet it behave perfectly when the chief of the AF was flying it, it produced all kind of issues. What's the feeling to fly the aircraft and now that everything should be perfect even those not under your control?

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Re: Boris Force One

#55 Post by Ex-Ascot » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:59 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:34 am
Ex-A what is the feeling to fly the (not for) the HMQ. We had a standing joke in the AF about the T-41: when it was flown by a cadet it behave perfectly when the chief of the AF was flying it, it produced all kind of issues. What's the feeling to fly the aircraft and now that everything should be perfect even those not under your control?
Don't 100% understand your question. When I started that lark for about 2 mins I was concerned about who was down the back then I realised that the pilot is usually the first to arrive at the scene of an accident so I flew myself and everyone behind me followed. As far as engineering is concerned, on The Queen's Flight everything was half life'd on the aircraft, not sure about the bog. On 10 Sqn with the VC10 the aircraft had a one week prep for a Royal or VIP. In 14 years of doing the job i never went so U/S I couldn't fly the thing. The main stress was doors times. You had to arrive on that red carpet to the second. It was stress throughout the flight. 'er despairs of me. If I say we are leaving at 11.00, we leave at 11.00, to the second. It is ingrained. Same with clients on Amorgos. I have had them running behind the Land Rover. They learn.
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Re: Boris Force One

#56 Post by Rwy in Sight » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:58 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:59 am
Rwy in Sight wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:34 am
Ex-A what is the feeling to fly the (not for) the HMQ. We had a standing joke in the AF about the T-41: when it was flown by a cadet it behave perfectly when the chief of the AF was flying it, it produced all kind of issues. What's the feeling to fly the aircraft and now that everything should be perfect even those not under your control?
Don't 100% understand your question. When I started that lark for about 2 mins I was concerned about who was down the back then I realised that the pilot is usually the first to arrive at the scene of an accident so I flew myself and everyone behind me followed. As far as engineering is concerned, on The Queen's Flight everything was half life'd on the aircraft, not sure about the bog. On 10 Sqn with the VC10 the aircraft had a one week prep for a Royal or VIP. In 14 years of doing the job i never went so U/S I couldn't fly the thing. The main stress was doors times. You had to arrive on that red carpet to the second. It was stress throughout the flight. 'er despairs of me. If I say we are leaving at 11.00, we leave at 11.00, to the second. It is ingrained. Same with clients on Amorgos. I have had them running behind the Land Rover. They learn.
Ex-A you got the answer 100%. I thought you would have the stress to fly more smoothly, perform a smoother landing, be more hesitant to fly a go around than in your civil job. And now I re-read your answer how did you manage a take-off at 11.00 if the VIP on board was delayed for some reason like a minister needing to hold a short conference with the PM?

For the technical part thanks again for the half life'd point. It is different to have a dedicated aircraft from having the chief of the air-force to decide to fly for some reason in short notice. Here AF generals tend to do that.

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Re: Boris Force One

#57 Post by Ex-Ascot » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:26 am

RiS:
how did you manage a take-off at 11.00 if the VIP on board was delayed for some reason like a minister needing to hold a short conference with the PM?
Well they were running down the runway after me weren't they =)) No, a frequent problem especially short haul. Road traffic hold ups on the way to LHR were the usual delay. Long haul we could usually make it up. I think I only missed it to the second twice, neither my fault (of course). We would cheat by a few seconds, but only one or two, by indicating to the cabin supervisor when to open the door with the seat belt sign.

Edit, yep you flew the thing onto the runway not chop power. At LHR we used the whole length and greased it on. Most times you didn't know that we had landed. No reverse thrust and very little braking. On take off again use the whole 15,000' (?) very gentle application of power. Drinks were being served on take off, glasses on tables, I didn't want my G&T in my lap on the flight deck.
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Re: Boris Force One

#58 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:14 pm

The V - Force was also in to timing. The basis of course was time on target and in training we had to make IP times for pre booked range and other slots. Stations were also allocated takeoff slots throughout the day and questions would be asked if the first slots of the day were not on time. No prizes for early or late and equally no question of sitting power on more than a minute or so.

One competition required aircraft to fly a 50 mile with points lost for each 100 yards from centre line and for each second out at the midway point. This was at 40,000 feet and tracked by a dedicated tracking radar.

This was abandoned after the first year as most crews collected the maximum 150 points.

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Re: Boris Force One

#59 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:16 pm

"I flew myself and everyone behind me followed." ^:)^
My standard answer to "Is this thing safe to fly?"..."If it wasn't safe you would have to go by yourself!" :ymdevil:

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Re: Boris Force One

#60 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:24 am

PN it was very much down to the Nav on the timing. He had to put us down to the second then it was up to the pilots. We marked off the taxi chart with where we had to be on the airfield at each minute to go. Nav would count us down. Obviously we needed to know where we were parking and in what direction we would be pointing. Takes 30 secs to turn a big jet gently through 180°. Then you have to line up the forward door with the red carpet. I had chinagraph marks on the DV window to line me up. BA once took I think HMQ to the States in Concorde, overshot the red carpet and had to be pushed back onto it =))
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