HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#101 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:34 am

I know it's a wee bit off topic, but the South China Sea really is a lot more Chinese than it is North Atlantic of the eponymous treaty organisation.

NATO's relentless Eastward push of military expansionism really has gone too far. The whole thing really should have been wound up and put to bed when WarPac collapsed.

Instead, it has shown its true colours.

In the 1960s amd 70s most of us, m'self included, believed that it was WarPac that had the expansionist militaristic intentions.

We were wrong, but we didn't know that at the time.

With the benefit of hindsight, we now know that in fact it was NATO which was the militaristic expansionist threat to the world, not the other way around. It was the NATO bombing, invasion and ocupation of Afghanistan which showed NATO for the aggressor that it actually is.

The Septics weren't going to risk one of their own war canoes in the recent jape, so they used HMS Defender instead. It was clearly a NATO Op. That's why they invested a Global Hawk to monitor the outcome and to hoover any Intel resultant to the provocation. We and the Cloggies are just The Empire's useful idiots in that area.

It has already been telegraphed, in the boxing sense, that NATO intends to provoke the Chinese by doing similar things in China's backyard too.

I greatly hope that the Chinks don't rise to the bait. I don't think that they will, but if NATO aggression against China gets too silly then there is a risk that the Chinks will follow up warning shots with the real thing. We won't like that. We won the Boxer War and we feel that we own China as a result.

China is a completely different entity to that of a century or two ago. They've learned their lesson of how painful it was to be militarily dominated by Britain and Japan.

They really truly madly deeply don't want to be dominated by the fascist entity that is the American Empire. They've had enough of that **** already and they don't want any more.

They don't yet have a blue water navy, but they do have the industrial capacity to build one and they could quite easily surprise us all with the rapidity with which they can build one. Training and gaining the experience needed by senior rates will take much longer of course, but that's only a matter of two or three decades and they've probably already started.

Biden is a very weak man, just like Clinton and Carter. He can so easily be pushed by the dark forces behind the Pentagon into stupid military adventures. Boris the Clown has shown himself to be even weaker. He's an easy pushover for the militarists. He sees himself as Pericles and Churchill, all rolled into one great statesman.

That's one hell of a dangerous combination in an inferior nuclear power which has a bad history of Imperial blunders. The augurs are not good.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#102 Post by FD2 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:40 am

This really is a new 'take' on what has been happening with NATO and seems a little odd. I was under the impression that the wicked Europeans stopped persecuting the Chinese when Mao declared victory in 1949 - Britain withdrew to Hong Kong and Portugal to Macau. I don't remember us persecuting the Chinese up at the border in 1966 though they were certainly persecuting us by starting riots in Wanchai - the screaming and waft of tear gas made for one or two interesting nights in the Suzy Wong bars. As we had an agreement to stay until Patten was in charge for the handover we kept our noses out of their business but they didn't keep theirs out of ours.

Prior to that I think they were certainly dominated militarily by Japan but not by the UK or the US. The Japanese behaved badly to say the least but after the War I don't think there was ever a chance of that happening again as the Japs and the Germans donned hair shirts which they wear to this day. The Japs are building their forces up again but for defensive purposes - no one in their right mind would think they could or would attack China in an act of aggression.

Boris Bunter is not a pushover - he just doesn't really do much at all, apart from change his mind and policies with monotonous regularity. Time will tell if Biden is pushed into anything by the military hawks (dark forces).

I hope that future events in the South China Sea are not conducted by China in the same manner as the Russian's activities in the Black Sea - now that would really be aggressive over-reaction. Anyone that stands firm against China in trade matters, or any matter come to think of it, suffers the Australian treatment. Not many believe these days that Putin is more than a disruptive evil force against modern, more democratic nations. Those who admire his methods of dealing with internal demonstrations of resistance deserve a little dose of his medicine themselves. I think the woke, BLM crap has gone too far in the west though and will at some point result in an extreme reaction from the right as happened in the US in 1919.

Bit of thread drift there...but what was so important about HMS Defender possibly turning right or possibly not turning right? How did the widely observed problems with the AIS fool anyone but Daily Mail readers? Has HMS QE got a functioning AIS and has Defender repaired hers? Is the carrier task group's activity being conducted under the control of NATO?

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#103 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:15 am

Esteemed ops-normalisers, bicker you not! Putin, whose strategy is to divide and confuse, would, no doubt, delight to see you, old comrades in British arms, so contrary in understanding and purpose.

He is a perfidious enemy, unlike us Boers, who were happy to cause you consternation with the Mauser or the odd, stolen, Lee-Metford, and only use Putin's tactics now when we are tutoring you in the art of rugby! =)) ;)))
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#104 Post by FD2 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:13 am

It’s very like a crew room conversation back in the day GG!

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#105 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:03 pm

what was so important about HMS Defender possibly turning right or possibly not turning right? How did the widely observed problems with the AIS fool anyone but Daily Mail readers? Has HMS QE got a functioning AIS and has Defender repaired hers? Is the carrier task group's activity being conducted under the control of NATO?
I'll take those interesting questions one at a time

The significance of the fact that she turned to Starboard is two-fold. First, it shows that she was diverted by the warning shots, despite the ***** denial which was issued by Main Building's piss-poor propagandists,

Secondly, it indicated that the promulgated AIS track data was bogus.

How did the widely observed problems with the AIS fool anyone but Daily Mail readers?

I suspect that almost everyone who saw the published track presumed that it couldn't possibly be a pack of lies. Not many people have the knowledge or inclination to check the underlying data as I did. Most people who saw the broadcast positions headings and speeds of Defender as shown by AIS would have believed that she was in the Persian Gulf and the English Channel without wondering how **** she managed to get to those places at the speed of heat.

Has HMS QE got a functioning AIS
She switched her AIS off when she completed a port call in Sicily about a week ago. Assuming she doesn't ram either bank of the Canal, she'll be off to irritate the Chinks next month. I greatly doubt that she herself will perpetrate an incursion into Chinese territory, but perhaps one or two of her aircraft be be tasked by the Septics to do so.

HMS Deadender was broadcasting a plausible track in the Med for a while, including a verified port call to Taranto, but her most recent broadcast position showed her alongside the wall at Mina Sulman again and another dataset she broadcast recently showed her bimbling through the Malacca Straights. She's broadcast so much ***** in the past month or two that's become impossible to tell whether she's broadcasting Truth or just more *****. If she hasn't got any Integrity Initiative reps aboard, she might be telling the truth. Or else maybe some killick is having a laugh by choosing random files of ***** positions to transmit. I'm sure they're having a giggle in the junior rates mess right now.

I guess the only way to find the truth would be to ask the Ruskkies and the Chinks. They tend not to lie about such matters because they don't need to.

Is the carrier task group's activity being conducted under the control of NATO?
Probably not NATO per se, but quite certainly at the beckoning of the Septics. NATO is very much a Murricane-owned tool, just as WarPac was a Russian one back in the day.

Both Blaircraft carriers are the playthings of the Septics and are effectively an adjunct of the USN. Rent boys, rent-free. Bend over, grab yer socks and cry Freedom! Vaseline ain't free in a Murrica y'know. Not even in the Wardroom.

Britain no longer has an empire and consequently has no legitimate use for carriers.

Airstrip One is an aircraft carrier ferfuxake. We don't need floaty ones any more. We've still got Gib and Akrotiri for Med Ops. We've got free access to Muharraq and al Udeid for Gulf Ops. We've got free access to Seeb and Masirah for Ops in the Arabian Sea. We've got free access to Ascension for onward transit to the Falklands where we've got MPA. The chances that the Argies will repeat their mistake of 1982 can mathematically be described as being the square root of four fifths of five eighths of ****.

We have no legitimate use for Blaircraft carriers. Their only function is to be Uncle Sam's bitch and to channel eyewateringly huge buckets of money to the suppliers of those deeply stoopid F-35s.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#106 Post by Boac » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:35 pm

Ah! That explains it all. Thanks. :-bd

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#107 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:15 pm

Boac wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:35 pm
Ah! That explains it all. Thanks. :-bd

Y'welcome, dear boy.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#108 Post by Boac » Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:45 pm

Actually I was a touch 'premature' with my effusive thanks, there, UP, my apologies. We still have at least post #86 unanswered, reproduced here to save your searching:

"When you do, UP, please as requested, explain this 'issue' with the incorrect AIS position you saw. I cannot see one.

"Innocent passage" exists to facilitate mercantile trade at sea.

Not according to Article 19.

at least three breaches of the protocol which disqualify Defender's provocation from claiming to be "innocent passage".

Specify.

Are you suggesting HMS Defender went on that route "piping ACTION STATIONS and having the deck crew lock&load live rounds of heavy calibre ammunition and ponce around on deck in flash hoods and flash gauntlets." as a matter of routine or do you think, as FD2 says, it might have been a reaction?"


Keenly awaiting your clarification.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#109 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:52 pm

Are you suggesting HMS Defender went on that route "piping ACTION STATIONS and having the deck crew lock&load live rounds of heavy calibre ammunition and ponce around on deck in flash hoods and flash gauntlets." as a matter of routine or do you think, as FD2 says, it might have been a reaction?"[/i]

Keenly awaiting your clarification.

Not quite sure what the question is.

Defender went into Action aggressively.

What was the question?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#110 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:09 pm

We've got bundles of invaders to protect ourselves against the outsider creeps.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#111 Post by Boac » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:37 pm

I am sensing an element of the Lord Mayor's Show.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#112 Post by FD2 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:48 pm

There's no way this can be resolved! Up is down and down is up. The US does effectively 'control' NATO because, and long before Chump got worked up about it, the members refuse to contribute a fair share of their GDP to their armed forces. It has been happening for a long time with several countries just hoping that mere membership of the club will mean that those who have functioning armed forces will protect them. Germany is the worse offender, at times having little more than soldiers with wooden rifles to 'contribute' (thanks to von der Liar). Russia effectively ran the Warsaw Pact and by default the US the NATO one as the other members, including the UK, have reduced their armed forces to pathetic levels.

The AIS seems to be a busted flush and If it really was so important why isn't there a massive outcry, like in this thread (!) concerning its unreliability. RT must be incensed on behalf of all AIS lovers of the world and I'm sure there is never, ever any nonsense like that from the Russian Navy or their merchant ships. ;)))

Finally, going the action stations against an extreme threat from the thug Putin's massed forces is not aggressive, it's just common sense, and the 'locked and loaded' and 'poncing about' descriptions don't help the argument. They reduce it to 'Boy's Own' magazine level. Did the ship go to action stations before or after entering 'Russian' waters or before or after encountering Russian threats once inside 'Russian' waters? Were the press people onboard Defender experienced or just there to try and grab a headline, like journalists do, especially the lefty BBC people?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#113 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:32 pm

FD2 wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:13 am
It’s very like a crew room conversation back in the day GG!
Let me correct my post!

and only use Putin's tactics now when we are tutoring you in the art losing the art of rugby! =))

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#114 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:16 pm

FD2 wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:48 pm
Were the press people onboard Defender experienced or just there to try and grab a headline, like journalists do, especially the lefty BBC people?

The Integrity Initiative goons weren't there by accident or by happenstance. They were part of the plan,

The pre-planned provocation was planned in advance and was pre-planned in every way.

No chirality involved. Just blind obedience to command.

That's the way propaganda works.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#115 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:31 pm

FD2 wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:48 pm
Did the ship go to action stations before or after entering 'Russian' waters or before or after encountering Russian threats once inside 'Russian' waters?

Before.

Else, why would they do the poncing about for the cameras before the aggression.

Why would they load up the 30mm stuff after running away?

They'da been in the Wardroom for gin by then.

Flash hoods and gauntlets aren't normal for supernumaries on Innocent Passage, I can tell ye. That's not at all how innocents work under Article 19 of UNCLOS. They really don't get togged up like that when they are innocent.

Innocent Plan B would have looked something like the Southern Route here:

Image

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#116 Post by FD2 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:57 pm

How can you be so sure they had anti-flash on before entering 'Russian' waters. Are you relying on a cobbled together report from the usually biased BBC? Likewise from the biased RT? Was it actually announced on the ship's broadcast that they were now entering disputed waters and should start 'poncing around' in their anti-flash. Were the officers dragged out of the cosy wardroom and their gin and tonics for this camera opportunity? That must be a new way of working if the officers load the weapons then run away (from what?) rather than the ratings who are trained in these matters.

They could just as easily have been 'poncing around' after entering disputed waters then gone to action stations when a threat developed. Sadly there's no way of questioning these matters if one only believes what one wants to believe - especially from sources that try to imply that all the UK or US does is, of course, disreputable/confrontational/aggressive. I've tried to understand the event with an open mind. It was obviously an attempt to show what an aggressive lot of people are under Putin's command and see what their reaction would be if someone dared to enter what they consider their own fiefdom. They proved their point didn't they? The confected outrage over the AIS business and the turn or not to starboard is just that.

Out from me! ~X(

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#117 Post by FD2 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:07 pm

We must have crossed there. I now see something purporting to be a UK Secret plan displayed here. Is that for real? Do you have a chum in the MOD? If so I think you had better take cover for uploading it, unless it's a fabricated thing from RT.

Unfortunately the writing is too fuzzy for me to read but I think the gist of it seems to be there were two tracks she could have followed and she took the one closer to Crimea. So much was obvious from the start.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#118 Post by llondel » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:09 pm

Of course, an obviously spoofed AIS has a purpose in that if you're looking at it on-line then you don't know which of the half dozen tracks is the real one, if any. The only people who know where the ship is are those with a visual on it. Others might be able to definitively state "not here", but unless they all work together to come up with the real one by elimination, they just know that one of the tracks is false.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#119 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:35 pm

FD2 wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:07 pm
I now see something purporting to be a UK Secret plan displayed here. Is that for real?
Probably so, but possibly not.

It was deposited in a London Transport bus shelter.

I would guess that an FCO low level non-rotary drone, lacking in gruntlement, carefully dropped it as a way of saying **** to other drones across the street over in MoD Main Building.

They do get very pissed off with eachother, y'know. Quite a lot, actually.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#120 Post by FD2 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:35 am

More bullsh*t from the Bullsh*tter-in-Chief. It wouldn't be too difficult to overwhelm any group of ships with a huge number of weapons launched unexpectedly i.e. like a Pearl Harbor style attack. (-|

Vladimir Putin boasts he can hit enemies with an 'unpreventable strike' just weeks after Russia fired warning shots in path of British warship

Vladimir Putin said he had power to launch 'unpreventable strike' on enemies
It comes as Russian military officials announced tests of advanced weapons
Comes after incident last month when Russia and UK ships in confrontation


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... trike.html

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