HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

[FD2]

If they went north about the Isle or Wight they would risk running aground if the ship was any size. The 'Russkies' regularly pass through the English Channel when they could just as easily go down to the Med to the west of Ireland so they are exercising their right of peaceful passage as well as sticking a finger up at the UK as well as choking them with smoke.

Was Defender on passage between two countries (that are internationally recognised as independent countries) or not? If she was then they had every right to pass through those waters and furthermore it matters not a jot who occupies the Crimea peninsula, they are still entitled to pass through those waters if on peaceful passage. If they expected the Russians to produce their usual bullying tactics they would very sensibly have been closed up at actions stations and a suitable damage control state.

I'm sure that they knew damned well Putin would try and make a huge fuss about it but were their 'exercises' promulgated in any notices to mariners? It's about time that Putin was ignored and the talk of those Russian shells passing through the thin skins of Defender is just playing into his hands. Judging by Moscow Centre's trolls in newspaper columns it seems to be having the desired affect of scaring the readership.

[Undried Plum]

Crimea is Russian. It has been Russian since long before the Crimean War.

It is Russian in exactly the same way that Gibraltar and the Falklands and the Shetlands and the Orkneys and the Channel Islands are British.

Some years ago they were given a democratic opportunity to break away from Russia if they wanted to. In an 80% turnout, the referendum voted more than 90% to remain Russian.

Even the Ukrainians recognise that, de facto, which is why they never try stupid stunts like putting their warships into Russian territorial waters.

[Undried Plum]

they are still entitled to pass through those waters if on peaceful passage.

That aggressive military incursion into Russian territory was nothing like "peaceful passage". It was a heavily armed incursion with gun crews closed up to action stations. Innocent Passage never, ever, involves such behaviour.

Take a look at UNCLOS and count the number of blatant infractions which were involved in Operation Ditroite.

[FD2]

So the Russian ships which regularly cruise through the Channel are unarmed? As I said, it doesn't matter a jot who occupies Crimea does it? So the Russian ships that were sent to harass them were not at action stations with weapon systems manned then?

Let's not dwell on any what-about-that incidents - we're discussing the Defender incident at the moment.

The Ukrainians are afraid of the Russian presence as they know very well they are heavily out-gunned by the nice 'Russkies' who will not hesitate to attack them with the utmost brutality.

If I have been reading this correctly, and please don't hesitate to correct me, the direct track from Odessa to whatever port they were making for in Georgia passes right through Crimea, so the shortest track they could steam along would take them close to the Crimean shore. This can't be dressed up as an 'armed incursion' to suit the Russian dictator's narrative - I think he 'protests too much'.

Knowing the belligerence of the dictator-for-life Putin they would be stupid to transit without being able to retaliate instantly if needs be. I can just imagine the outcry from him if the UK armed forces treated the next Russian ship like that as it passes through the Channel!

[Undried Plum]

There is no relevant comparison between the constrained straights of Dover and the open sea of the Black Sea.

Defender had no navigational need whatsoever to sail close to the Russian coast. She could have taken any of a hundred or a thousand other routes to go on her patrol of the Black Sea.

Operation Ditroite was clearly a pre-planned provocation, nothing else.

It's a bit of a one-trick pony act though. The Russians have made clear that if the aggression is repeated it will not be met with such tolerance again. The warning shots, whose very existence is implausibly denied by MoD, will next time damage the paintwork of any Grey Funnel Line war canoe that also tries to act the goat.

And then there's the Chinese.... They won't want to lose face. They've been kicked around by the gweilo for a coupla centuries, but that was before China became the greatest manufacturing country in the world and started to build a blue water navy of their own. They may not have experienced petty officers and officers yet, but that just makes things even more volatile if Pusser starts taking the piss. There will be the added complication that the oafish Septics will be involved and those ****q never know when they're beaten, despite not having won a war since before Korea.

A dead or dying Empire is a nasty thing to behold. We are seeing it now.

[FD2]

There is a very easy comparison between the English Channel and the Black Sea. The Russian ships can belch their way around Ireland to the Bay of Biscay and avoid the deliberately confrontational passage through the Straights of Dover. I suppose Defender should have crept around the southern edge of the Black Sea in order to reach Georgia so the little man Putin wasn't 'offended' or 'affronted' but no ship will take a longer route than is necessary as it's just a waste of fuel.

The ship was obviously challenging the right of free passage and a predictable response of the Russians occurred. I don't think that even the little thug would be stupid enough to actually fire on another nation's ship on a peaceful passage. Fans of the dictators for life in Russia, China, Belarus etc might approve of the bluster and threats but real aggression might bring a larger and swifter response than they expect. Too many countries are afraid to confront these tyrants.

The offensive actions of China in the South China Sea, trying to punish any countries that mention their thuggish behaviour towards the Uigurs and the threats towards Taiwan will be on the agenda next. We wait with bated breath. China has more than a few problems of its own to contend with in the long term. What a pity that so many countries were stupid enough to hand over so much of their manufacturing industry to China in order to increase their company profits.

[FD2]

Now the nice kind Russian forces are accused of harassing the Dutch frigate Evertsen. What an outrageous accusation!

I suspect Putin is just trying, in the only way he knows how, to influence the outcome of the trial taking place in the Netherlands at the moment. You know - the one where they are trying to pin the blame for the shooting down of Malaysian Airways Flight 17 on those nice old Russkies...when we all know from RT that it was the Ukrainians wot done it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48691488

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_ ... _Flight_17

Russian jets 'armed with bombs' accused of 'mock attacks' on Dutch navy ship

Frigate was subjected to 'hours of intimidation' in the Black Sea, defence ministry claims
By Danielle Sheridan, Political and Defence Correspondent 30 June 2021 • 11:09am

Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyer HMS Defender, followed by Royal Netherlands Navy frigate HNLMS Evertsen, sets sail in the Bosphorus, on its way to the Black Sea, in Istanbul, Turkey June 14, 2021

The Dutch frigate Evertsen, right, alongside HMS Defender in the Bosphorus this month Credit: Reuters

Russian fighter jets have been accused of "harassing" a Dutch navy frigate in the Black Sea as it carried out "mock attacks," the Defence Ministry of the Netherlands has claimed.

Speaking out for the first time since the Dutch ship Zr. Ms. Evertsen accompanied HMS Defender on a patrol in the Black Sea last week, the Dutch ministry of defence accused Moscow of flying Russian planes “dangerously low and close by, performing feint attacks”.

It comes after Russia said one of its warships in the Black Sea fired warning shots and a warplane dropped bombs to force a British destroyer out of an area near Crimea that Russia claims as its territorial waters. The UK has denied that account and insisted its ship wasn't fired upon.

Responding to Moscow’s claims last week, Downing Street dismissed the suggestion that the Royal Navy was "fired upon or that the ship was in Russian waters" as "incorrect".

However, the Netherlands’ ministry released a statement on Tuesday in which it accused Moscow of “repeatedly” harassing the Dutch vessels “between about 3.30 pm and 8.30 pm local time”.

They added that the fighters were “armed with bombs and so-called air-to-surface missiles, intended to fire at a target from the air”, and that “after hours of intimidation”, the Russians then proceeded to disrupt Evertsen’s electronic equipment. “The Russian actions violated the right to the free use of the sea,” they added.

The commander of the Dutch warship, Captain-Lieutenant at Sea George Pastoor, said: “There was no reason whatsoever for these aggressive actions. Despite this, the mock attacks continued for several hours. It was irresponsible and unsafe behaviour at sea.”

Netherlands Frigate Evertsen.png (490.71 KiB) Viewed 483 times

Royal Netherlands Navy frigate HNLMS Evertsen sets sail in the Bosphorus, on its way to the Black Sea, in Istanbul, Turkey June 14, 2021.

HNLMS Evertsen accompanied HMS Defender in the Black Sea Credit: Reuters

Minister Ank Bijleveld-Schouten denounced the actions as “irresponsible,” as she added the vessels had “every right to sail there”.

She said: “There is no justification whatsoever for this kind of aggressive action, which also unnecessarily increases the risk of accidents. The Netherlands will address Russia about this.”

It comes after Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary, said HMS Defender was warned by a Russian coastguard vessel that Russian units would commence a live fire gunnery exercise, shortly after the Royal Navy ship "conducted innocent passage through Ukrainian territorial waters via a direct route using a traffic separation scheme".

Mr Wallace said that while they noted "gunnery astern and out of range of her position", it "posed no danger" to the ship.

Russia annexed Ukraine's Crimea in 2014, a move not recognised by most countries, by which it gained access to the peninsula's long Black Sea coast. Russia has accused Nato warships visiting the area of being a destabilising presence.

In April, Russia imposed restrictions on foreign naval movements near Crimea until November, in a move that drew strong complaints from Ukraine and the West. Russia rejected the criticism and noted the restrictions wouldn't interfere with commercial shipping.

Earlier this year, Russia also bolstered its troops near the border with Ukraine and warned Kiev against using force to reclaim control of the country's eastern industrial heartland, where a conflict with Russia-backed separatists has killed more than 14,000 people in seven years. Moscow withdrew some of its forces after manoeuvres, but Ukrainian officials say many of them remain.

[Undried Plum]

Ah yes. Protecting the Dutch coastline in the Black Sea.

Oh! Hang on a minute.

They've got overseas territories, such as Saba. They are Dutch in the same way as Gib and the Falklands are British and in the same way as Crimea is Russian. It's a matter of History; and of demographics; and of democracy in each of those cases. Saba and Sint Maarten are in the Eastern Caribbean, not in the Med or the Black Sea or the Sea of Azov. Close to the Atlantic, though not very close to the North Atlantic with its war-mongering military expansionism.

I musta not been paying attention in Geography classes at school when they told us about the flatlanders having (re)claimed land in the Black Sea or the Eastern Med.

[FD2]

That begs the question of what Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and of course Britain should do when the next coat trailing armed incursion of their Black Sea equivalent - the North Cape, North Sea, Channel etc occurs by belligerent armed Russian units defending Russian 'territories' in these areas.

Is the whole Black Sea to be assumed to be all Russian ‘territory’ from now on just because Vlad the billionaire Impaler says it is. No one else allowed in his playground? Warships steaming anywhere there have to be harassed in this fashion? Might get a glimpse of his rather large retirement 'villa' nestling in the wooded hills.

This discussion cannot go further because there are Putin supporters and Putin haters - like Marmite. I'm one of the latter - I'd better check my front door handle from now on...

[Undried Plum]

Wha!

Wurr aa'' goona die.!

Samwaa a sodger on 'is s naw dee.

A snaw covered sodger wi'n snaw on 'is boots at oor ain door.


Wurr gonna die, ye ken. Gonna die.

[Undried Plum]

Hide yer 1250. They'e commin efter yer, fer fuxxake !

Hide under yer duvet.

[Boac]

because there are Putin supporters and Putin haters

Indeed, FD2. I'm with you.

[Undried Plum]

I'd better check my front door handle from now on...

[Boac]

It wasn't Russia that did it in Salisbury, FD2, so you'll be OK. You have been told.

[Undried Plum]

I'll use the back door, and be sure that my daughter doesn't touch it on the way out.

You can never be too careful, y'know.

[Undried Plum]

Warships steaming anywhere there have to be harassed in this fashion?

[Undried Plum]

I remember when they used to expensively hire Hunters, and later Hawks and yet later frogglish hingwes, to do dat stuff. Now dey get it for free.

Embellish!

[FD2]

I think you'll be safe enough using the front door U.P. but just in case get the local yokels to keep watch for those men from the S.S. or the S.I.S. They'll just be visiting the area to gaze at the wonderful beech hedge at Meiklour.

[FD2]

Being serious again for a moment. I don't think anyone with half a brain can think that Russia can be dislodged from Crimea. However, it does not give them the right to intimidate anyone who ventures near the area. I think Joe will have forgotten any accord you thought you'd reached by now Vlad.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... ne-russia/


Putin accuses US of working with UK to test Russia's defences in HMS Defender incident

The Royal Navy insisted it had every right to be in what is regarded to be Ukraine's territorial waters off Crimea
By Nataliya Vasilyeva, Russia Correspondent 30 June 2021 • 3:30pm

Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, has accused the United States of working with the UK to undermine Russia’s defences.

His comments come a week after a British Royal Navy destroyer was harassed by Russian jets and subjected to warning shots after travelling within 12 miles of Crimea’s shoreline, triggering a major confrontation.

During his annual marathon call-in show on state television on Wednesday, Mr Putin described the incident as a “provocation” and alleged that a US reconnaissance aircraft was operating in sync with the UK warship HMS Defender to spy on Russia’s defence capabilities.

Mr Putin claimed the incident was a deliberate attempt to undermine the progress that the Kremlin felt it had achieved at the summit with the President Joe Biden the week before.

“The meeting in Geneva had just happened, so why was this provocation needed, what was its objective? To underscore that those people do not respect Crimeans’ choice to join the Russian Federation.”

Asked by the TV host if the confrontation could have triggered a Third World War, Mr Putin sought to play it down: “Even if we had sunk the British destroyer near Crimea, it’s unlikely that the world would be on the verge of Third World War.”

The leader also accused the West of using Ukraine as a stomping ground for flexing its military muscle on Russia’s doorstep.

“The military exploitation of the territory that borders on us - this creates significant security problems for us. This really concerns Russia’s vital interests," he said.

Russia has been at loggerheads with Ukraine since 2014 when Moscow annexed the Crimean peninsula and propped up armed separatists in the country’s east.

In response, Ukrainian leaders have increasingly sought to join Nato, saying it is the only way to ward off Russian aggression.

Fears about renewed fighting in the country's east resurfaced this spring as Russia amassed tens of thousands of troops by the Ukrainian border in what has been described as its largest military build-up since the Crimean annexation.

I expect RT can provide photos of the US reconnaissance aircraft?

[Undried Plum]

I think you'll be safe enough using the front door U.P. but just in case get the local yokels to keep watch for those men from the S.S. or the S.I.S. They'll just be visiting the area to gaze at the wonderful beech hedge at Meikelour.

You bastard, you.

That hedge has great familiarity for me. I've driven past it half a hundred times or more. More, actually.

First time, was a passenger in a coach on a school skiing trip. The coach radio was playing Whitchitaa Lineman. I was fumbling with my teenage first love. Memorable.

Next time we drove past that Beech, I had her hand in love. With that music again.

Memorable, for me. And perhaps for her too. We have been partners for well over half a century.

I drove past that 'hedge' a hundred times or more, more , when I lived in South Deeside.

Always hard to get pepper out of my eyes, there. The tune is is an exquisite form of pleasure for me when I play it on the car hifi when driving past that row of Beeches.

It's part of my life.