HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#121 Post by Boac » Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:25 am

Do I detect the tacit admission that his 'reading' of Article 19(2) was wrong?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#122 Post by FD2 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:36 am

I must admit I have a sneaking admiration for Vlad, even though he's a thug. He tells the people what they want to hear, about how strong and well defended modern Russia is. They are fanatically loyal and patriotic, having never forgotten the memories of WW2 and their awful sacrifices. They would also rather endure another Stalin-like rule than the weak imbeciles some western countries have to endure, even though some parts of modern Russia are little better than third world standards. To his people he can do no wrong, even when he's making statements which are self evidently true he can do no wrong.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#123 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:25 am

Would I be right in surmising that he was referring to the recent test firing of a hypersonic Zircon anti-ship missile when he bragged of an 'unpreventable strike' capability?

If the wiki article is correct then that thing looks pretty formidable. Mach 8 or more, with a warhead of 300kg or more and a range of 540nm or more. If they can sort out the usual reliability problems, that thing could be quite potent.

Can Phalanx and Goalkeeper deal with a missile of such a speed?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#124 Post by Boac » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:40 am

Can UP answer the question?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#125 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:12 pm

I can only ask it, not answer it. I know nothing of the capabilities of CIWS gizmos. I looked at a couple of YT vids which showed them practicing against a Zodiac rubber duck and one of them targeting a low flying Hawk, but neither of those is comparable to a Mach 8+ missile.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#126 Post by Boac » Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:00 pm

Master of the deflection shooting technique!

Do I detect the tacit admission that his 'reading' of Article 19(2) was wrong?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#127 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:52 pm

UP, Mach 8 has a destructive power all of its own.

Hitting something travelling at even Mach 1 at 1,000 yards results in many objects approaching at Mach 1.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#128 Post by llondel » Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:09 pm

Back to the days of cannonballs, except with a lot more kinetic energy.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#129 Post by FD2 » Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:36 pm

Has there been any independent assessment of the Zircon 'performance' claims? Are we just to believe Vlad's claims?

Yet more preparations for Armageddon, some of which actually sounds plausible, though it's still in the 'design stage':



Russia starts work on two new ‘Doomsday planes’ for use in nuclear war


Aircraft would be used to evacuate top officials and act as an aerial command post in the event of a nuclear attack

By Nataliya Vasilyeva, Russia Correspondent, Moscow 26 July 2021 • 3:43pm



Russia starts work on two new ‘Doomsday planes’ for use in nuclear war.png
Russia is the only other country apart from the United States to have a ‘Doomsday’ plane Credit: Valentina Pevtsova/Tass via Getty Images

Russia is on track to build two new “Doomsday planes” designed to serve as a war room for the Kremlin in case of a nuclear attack.

The new plane model, named for its ability to withstand a nuclear blast, would work as a potential aerial command post for top officials.

The planes will be fitted with technology to manage Russia’s nuclear arsenal, including submarines, strategic bombers and missile launchers based as far as 6,000 kilometres away.

State-owned news agency RIA Novosti said on Monday that one plane was being built and another was also expected to be commissioned.

The plane was modified from an Il-96-400M, a Soviet-designed airliner, and would be deployed “to evacuate the country’s senior leadership and coordinate the troops in case of the destruction of ground and satellite infrastructure,” RIA Novosti said.

It is expected to have a longer range than its predecessor, although the exact details were not reported.

A military source of the Izvestia daily, however, said that the plane was still in the design stage and that it was too early to speak about the production.

Russia’s previous Doomsday plane was the subject of media attention last year when police reported several electronic units from the top-secret Il-80 plane were stolen during maintenance work in Taganrog.

Military experts speculated that the jet fell victim of common thieves who were after precious metals such as gold and platinum used in the equipment.

The incident raised concern about the security of the top-secret jet.

Russia’s new Doomsday plane is just one of the plethora of new military projects that have received lavish financing in recent years as the Kremlin embarks on an ambitious re-armament programme for the Russian military, which has long been under financed.

Monday's announcement appears to be a retort to the US Air Force for parading its own Doomsday plane. Just a few hours earlier, the Pentagon spokesman tweeted a video showing the E4-B Nightwatch being refuelled mid-flight.

Top Russian and US officials will meet in Geneva for nuclear arms talks on Wednesday, which is the first tangible outcome of last month’s summit between Joe Biden, the US president, and Vladimir Putin, his Russian counterpart.

Relations between Moscow and Washington have reached their lowest level since the end of the Cold War, but the two leaders agreed at their first meeting since Mr Biden’s election to restart talks aimed at reducing the risk of nuclear war.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#130 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:12 pm

Meanwhile in China...
A huge field with the potential to hold up to 110 nuclear silos has been discovered in China, scientists have claimed.

The plot of land in the Gobi desert, near the city of Hami in the Xinjiang province, currently has 14 completed silos and the ground is cleared to build another 19, researchers at the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) said.

It could have up to 110 underground silos built on it judging by the “grid-like outline of the entire complex,” said the non-profit global think tank that it says was set up to work towards reducing the number of nuclear weapons in use.

The field spans about 300 square miles, the same size as another nuclear weapons silo site discovered last month in Yumen, in the neighbouring Gansu province, and the dozen or so silos built in the Jilantai training area in Inner Mongolia.

The scientists said construction at the site – which they discovered using satellite images – likely began around March, according to their blog post published on Monday.

The underground silos are typically used to house intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs).

The researchers fear that the new silos are proof that China plans to rapidly increase its stockpile amid the global nuclear arms race.

FAS said that it’s not sure how the silos will be used – whether they would serve as empty decoys or to store warheads – but it added that China’s current number of around 350 warheads is expected to more than double over the next decade.

If the new silos were all loaded with missiles, Chinese ICBMs could potentially “carry more than 875 warheads assuming three warheads per missile when the Yumen and Hami missile silo fields are completed,” up from the approximately 185 warheads China has on ICBMs already – the researchers wrote.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 91557.html
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#131 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:24 pm

Cue, some idiot in MoD Main Building to send a semi-crippled destroyer of Grey Funnel Line into China's sovereign territory to test the resolve of the Chinese people to defend their own ground.

Duck! (without Hoi Sin sauce)

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#132 Post by Boac » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:11 pm

Don't forget they need to jiggle with the AIS to fool the tabloid readers or what will we think?

If she is 'Grey Funnel Line she will be 'Mercantile', so that will be OK, of course, under Article 19(2), eh maestro?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#133 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:18 pm

If she is 'Grey Funnel Line she will be 'Mercantile'
Grey Funnel Line is common parlance among mariners for non-mercantile.

Mercantile vessels proceed under the terms of Innocent Passage as defined by UNCLOS.

Brenda's war canoe did not.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#134 Post by FD2 » Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:17 pm

If they are doubling their stockpile then they will be able to be doubly 'defensive' won't they? You need over 850 odd ICBM carried warheads to 'defend' your ancient ownership of the South China Sea against the surrounding countries, like Malaysia and the Philippines, plus the occasional grey painted ship passing through on passage, but hey, no grey painted ship is 'innocent' is it? After all these years of being attacked and belittled by the US and UK, to name but two belligerents, they need a bigger nuclear deterrence, don't they? What it really signals is stay away from our oil in the South China Sea and anywhere else in the world that we damned well please. [-X

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#135 Post by Boac » Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:18 pm

Grey Funnel Line is common parlance among mariners for non-mercantile.
Well, I never knew that..........

Still not got it? Where is the word 'Mercantile' in 19(2)? You'll have to admit it sometime. Lord Mayor's Show?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#136 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:54 pm

Grey funnel line...



Nice, but I prefer this version..



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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#137 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:20 pm

Boac wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:18 pm
Where is the word 'Mercantile' in 19(2)?
Did somebody say that the UNCLOS description of Innocent Passage uses the word which you quote?

Only you, methinks.

Go and count the contraventions of that definition which were perpetrated by the provocation and its attendant propaganda effort.

I reckon it's either two or three. Mebbe you can find the fourth one.

Only one contravention would have counted as an illegal contravention of the UNCLOS Treaty, so committing two or more contravention was as OTT as the whole of Operation Ditroite.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#138 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:27 pm

I think that this thread gives true meaning to the concept of a shoal of "sea lawyers!" :))
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#139 Post by tango15 » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:32 pm

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/650 ... 8vLA%3D%3D


For all the Russkie braggadocio, they still trot out the same old museum pieces at their equivalent of Farnborough...

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#140 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:39 pm

tango15 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:32 pm
https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/650 ... 8vLA%3D%3D


For all the Russkie braggadocio, they still trot out the same old museum pieces at their equivalent of Farnborough...
Interesting though, and I do see the MC-21 in the midst of all those relics...

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/r ... 07.article

https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 04.article
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