HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#141 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:45 pm

Does Russia still make aeroplanes? Isn't the Su-57 a Russian effort? Or is that Ukrainian like the TU-160?

What was the last British manufactured aeroplane? I've forgotten. Was it the Harrier? The Comet/Nimrod? The Optica? The 20th century version of the HS748? There must surely have been one in the last twenty or thirty years. Hasn't there?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#142 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:52 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:45 pm
Does Russia still make aeroplanes? Isn't the Su-57 a Russian effort? Or is that Ukrainian like the TU-160?

What was the last British manufactured aeroplane? I've forgotten. Was it the Harrier? The Comet/Nimrod? The Optica? The 20th century version of the HS748? There must surely have been one in the last twenty or thirty years. Hasn't there?
The TU-160, as I am sure you know UP, is very much Russian and still an extraordinary, potent, aircraft! Same can be said of the fifth generation SU-57.

As you say, sadly, the British aircraft industry is a shadow of its former self and Farnborough a cancelled, reduced shadow of its former glory!


We Saffers don't get irony I guess! :)
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#143 Post by Boac » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:28 pm

in #83 UP wrote:"Innocent passage" exists to facilitate mercantile trade at sea. It was never intended to be an excuse for military aggression.
Go and count the contraventions of that definition
I see none. They are in your imagination. There was no 'aggression', merely 'exercising' 19(2) in disputed waters. 19(2), written for all sea vessels.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#144 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:51 pm

Oh ferfuxake, man.

Go and read the agreement which Britain signed up to. Open your eyes.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#145 Post by FD2 » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:44 pm

Defining Non-Innocent Passage

According to Article 19 (2) of UNCLOS, passage of a foreign ship shall be considered prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state and thus in non-innocent passage if, in the territorial sea (less than 12 nautical miles from shore), it engages in any of the following activities:

(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;

(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;

(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;

(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;

(e) the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft;

(f) the launching, landing or taking on board of any military device;

(g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal State;

(h) any act of wilful and serious pollution contrary to this Convention;

(i) any fishing activities;

(j) the carrying out of research or survey activities;

(k) any act aimed at interfering with any systems of communication or any other facilities or installations of the coastal State;

(l) any other activity not having a direct bearing on passage.

Most relevant to the embarkation of PCASP is UNCLOS Article 19 (2) (b)—“any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind.”

Supporters of armed guards maintain that the mere carriage of weapons, locked or stowed, certainly cannot be considered an “exercise or practice.” Similarly, using a weapon in a bona fide self-defense situation against genuine threats of piracy, armed robbery or terrorism would also not classify as an exercise or practice.


So - let's hear what Defender was contravening amongst that lot?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#146 Post by FD2 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:35 am

Establishing Non-Innocent Passage

One of the most challenging enforcement activities for a coastal state is to establish, without a doubt, that a ship is in non-innocent passage. Modern interpretations of UNCLOS, specifically concerning physical and environmental security, stress that actual damage must occur before a coastal state can declare a vessel’s passage in its territorial sea non-innocent. If wrongly accused, the ship or charterer can hold the coastal state liable for damages.

Military and commercial vessels alike always enjoy the right of innocent passage and self-defense while within the territorial sea of a foreign state, granted they do not undertake activities which can be interpreted as a threat to the coastal state or engage in the use of force against the coastal state, including the “launching, landing, or taking aboard any aircraft or military device,” per Article 19 (2) (f) of UNCLOS.

This clause may complicate the matter as PCASP themselves must eventually embark, disembark, and load or offload their weapons at some port or at a floating armory. Should these activities take place, specifically via floating armory or other vessel in a state’s territorial sea and without that coastal state’s permission, it may be considered as taking aboard a “military device” and thus a violation of innocent passage. This is especially true if the weapons taken aboard are not for commercial, private, maritime security personnel but for a military vessel protection detail (VPD,) in which a small team of military personnel is deployed to a commercial vessel, usually by the flag state, to protect it while transiting high-risk areas.


https://www.maritime-executive.com/feat ... nt-Passage

"Go and count the contraventions of that definition which were perpetrated by the provocation and its attendant propaganda effort." I expect gesturing with two fingers or farting in the general direction of Crimea could be interpreted as 'provocation' if one tried hard enough.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#147 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:05 am

As I noted before, I would like any one of the sea lawyers here, whose close, forensic reading and interpretation of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, on either of the side of the debate, on my side. However the cynic, some may say realist, in me says that whatever the rights or the wrongs of this thing, it is almost certain, albeit unprovable in law, that the following clauses were being transgressed:

a) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State; <<one can argue that these were Ukranian coastal waters, but that is another legal point>>

(j) the carrying out of research or survey activities;

(l) any other activity not having a direct bearing on passage.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#148 Post by Boac » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:25 am

FD - I think we can declare victory here and continue to support the innocent passage of ALL vessels (including Russians in the Channel) and enjoy poking fingers in Putin's ribs. It would be fun to 'order' the next Russian military vessel in Channel transit to alter course away from the UK and to leave our 'Territorial Waters', and then fire off a few rounds a few miles away when they refuse, quoting, of course, at least 3 breaches of19(2). (See FD2 Post #7)

PS Should we count the presence of the media fluffies as 'PCASP'? :))

TGG - have we seen any other poster here 'upset' by events - I have lost track - or is it just Comrade UP?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#149 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:31 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:25 am
TGG - have we seen any other poster here 'upset' by events - I have lost track - or is it just Comrade UP?
‘Events, my dear boy, events,’ as Macmillan was reputed to have said! :)

No gentleman, of which all of you are, likes to lose at love, cards or loquacious legal dispute. Duels have been fought, won and lost for lesser issues than I note on this hoary page... ;)))
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#150 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:25 am

Research or survey work, impossible to prove a negative unless you have observers on board and certain compartments evacuated and sealed off.
Water will be monitored closely from simple depth, salinity, and temperatures, to currents and chemical analysis. The electronics department will be closed up monitoring every shore and ship emission for both emissions that the Russians knowingly emit and the inevitable comsec and emsec breaches that will occur.
When my father was in Chinese waters binoculars were secured and armed guards ensured notes were not taken; of course they were and they were only a mership.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#151 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:38 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:45 pm
Does Russia still make aeroplanes? Isn't the Su-57 a Russian effort? Or is that Ukrainian like the TU-160?

What was the last British manufactured aeroplane? I've forgotten. Was it the Harrier? The Comet/Nimrod? The Optica? The 20th century version of the HS748? There must surely have been one in the last twenty or thirty years. Hasn't there?
Hydrogen - Islander

The only existing British airframe manufacturer is Britten-Norman with the venerable (circa 1965) Islander, although the airframes were assembled under subcontract in Romania for more than 50 years, they are now manufactured in the UK at the company's Lee-on-the-Solent manufacturing facility at Daedalus Airfield, a former Royal Naval Air Station.
Known for its enduring, no-nonsense, short take-off and landing (STOL) Islander – an aircraft it has been building since the 1960s – tiny Britten-Norman might seem an unlikely trailblazer in commercial aviation’s quest for sustainability.

However, the UK’s last surviving airframer is playing a key role in two government-backed technology initiatives to develop greener aircraft, and firmly intends to be “at the forefront of the electric aircraft revolution”, according to its long-serving chief executive William Hynett.

One, Project Fresson, sees the Hampshire-based company working with a consortium headed by Cranfield Aerospace Solutions to develop a passenger aircraft capable of being powered by hydrogen fuel cells. A demonstration flight is planned for September 2022.

Another, Project HEART – it stands for hydrogen electric and automated regional transportation – aims to demonstrate an autonomously-controlled and hydrogen-powered Islander on essential routes such as those serving the thinly-populated far north of Scotland.

While Project Fresson initially focused on developing an aircraft powered by on-board batteries, that path was abandoned, and Hynett believes that hydrogen-based technology is the “game-changer” that will allow commercial aviation to achieve its zero-carbon goal.

That became clear last year, as the partners behind Project Fresson began to scope out the potential of hydrogen fuel cells rather than using batteries. “It started to make sense,” says Hynett. “It takes away the need for charging. It takes away weight.”

CORE OFFERING
Such is his confidence in Project Fresson’s progress that Hynett believes a hydrogen-powered aircraft could be Britten-Norman’s “core offering” by the end of the decade. “We are very comfortable that we could sell a hydrogen-powered aircraft in our market,” he says.

That market comprises mostly tiny airlines and public sector-run entities – there are some 230 operators of the nine-seat Islander around the world – serving remote communities from North America’s Great Lakes to the Falkland Islands, and from the Scottish isles to Pacific archipelagos.

Island Airways is typical. The 76-year-old carrier serves Beaver Island, a settlement of around 600 people in Lake Michigan. In September, it will take delivery of a second-hand Islander sourced by Britten-Norman, its fifth, and a requirement driven by increasing tourist traffic, says the airline.

Aside from sightseers, the husband and wife-owned airline transports locals, mail and cargo, and provides a medical evacuation service. In winter, when Lake Michigan freezes, its operation becomes all the more vital. With ferries out of action, the 15min flight is the only connection to the mainland.

Another recent customer is the Falkland Islands Government Aviation Service (FIGAS), which accepted its fifth Islander, a new-build, last December. FIGAS has operated the type since the 1970s, performing air ambulance and environmental monitoring missions, as well as scheduled flights.

Of the roughly 1,300 Islanders produced over 56 years, 470 are thought to still be in service. Some 80% are powered by Lycoming O-540s; the remainder by Rolls-Royce B17 turboprops, which deliver a higher maximum take-off weight. Most of the latter are in government or special mission use.

Hynett believes a compact and simply engineered type like the Islander is “perfect” to pioneer tomorrow’s green technologies such as hydrogen power. “Opportunities for-longer range aircraft will happen through the work we do in short-range,” he says.

As well as collaborating on the green projects, Britten-Norman, which has Oman-based backers, has spent much of the pandemic period settling into new premises on the former RNAS Lee-on-Solent naval air base, now operated as a private airfield and aviation park by the local authority.
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#152 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:40 pm

FD2 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:44 pm
Defining Non-Innocent Passage

According to Article 19 (2) of UNCLOS, passage of a foreign ship shall be considered prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state and thus in non-innocent passage if, in the territorial sea (less than 12 nautical miles from shore), it engages in any of the following activities:

(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;

(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;

(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;

(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;

(e) the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft;

(f) the launching, landing or taking on board of any military device;

(g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal State;

(h) any act of wilful and serious pollution contrary to this Convention;

(i) any fishing activities;

(j) the carrying out of research or survey activities;


(k) any act aimed at interfering with any systems of communication or any other facilities or installations of the coastal State;

(l) any other activity not having a direct bearing on passage.

Most relevant to the embarkation of PCASP is UNCLOS Article 19 (2) (b)—“any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind.”

Supporters of armed guards maintain that the mere carriage of weapons, locked or stowed, certainly cannot be considered an “exercise or practice.” Similarly, using a weapon in a bona fide self-defense situation against genuine threats of piracy, armed robbery or terrorism would also not classify as an exercise or practice.


So - let's hear what Defender was contravening amongst that lot?

(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;


Oops! Look away now from the Integrity Initiative video footage of Pusser getting locked and loaded with link-ammo into the 30mm cannons and dressing up with anti-flash garb on deck.


(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;


It wisnae an exercise, Guv, it wuz fer real. Honest. See sub-para (a) for proof. err, lemme get back to you on which it wuz.


(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;

We didnae not switch off our broadband rx gear and never recorded any of the data, Guv. Neither did the Global Hawk, mate. Honest, Guv. Why would we want to listen in to that stuff, mate? We'd rather watch East Enders or wotever the Septic equivalent is, mate. Honest.


(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;

The Integrity Initiative hitch-hikers just wanted a lift from one side of the Black Sea to the other. That's all. Quite normal on a Royal Navy ferry nowadays, now that Cunard is buggered 'cos of Communist flu.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#153 Post by FD2 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:36 pm

(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;

Oops! Look away now from the Integrity Initiative video footage of Pusser getting locked and loaded with link-ammo into the 30mm cannons and dressing up with anti-flash garb on deck.

No - just a sensible reaction to Russian aggression.

(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;

It wisnae an exercise, Guv, it wuz fer real. Honest. See sub-para (a) for proof. err, lemme get back to you on which it wuz.

I think that might actually mean firing weapons not just sitting there with them loaded - that's not an exercise other than in boredom.

(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;

We didnae not switch off our broadband rx gear and never recorded any of the data, Guv. Neither did the Global Hawk, mate. Honest, Guv. Why would we want to listen in to that stuff, mate? We'd rather watch East Enders or wotever the Septic equivalent is, mate. Honest.

Unprovable accusation, but I don't supposed their Blinders, Badgers, Bleeders and the rest are doing that when they test the RAF's reactions to their offensive actions, re-started since the Cold War. Also I accuse their wheezy old carrier and other sundry Russian vessels of doing that when they take peaceful passage through the Channel, but I just can't prove it. Meantime I can confect some 'outrage'.

(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;

The Integrity Initiative hitch-hikers just wanted a lift from one side of the Black Sea to the other. That's all. Quite normal on a Royal Navy ferry nowadays, now that Cunard is buggered 'cos of Communist flu.

One could confuse an act demonstrating free passage rights (and remember that they're not confined to merchant shipping ;))) ) with 'propaganda' in a broad sense but not as we usually think of propaganda. I don't think the Russian security or defence around Crimea was affected in any way. If, as you say, they were conducting an exercise at the time then that would definitely affect Defender's actions/reactions. Do Russians ever do that sort of 'propaganda' stuff? :-q

(j) the carrying out of research or survey activities;


I think the RN still has some vessels which do that sort of work but they are not Type 45 destroyers.

Much as I enjoy this batting accusations back and forth about the actions I'll leave you to have the final word UP.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#154 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:07 pm

just a sensible reaction to Russian aggression.
Wot Russian aggression?

Did they sail a warship up our arse in the Clyde or the Firth of Forth or the Moray Firth or the Bristol Channel or the Minches or summink?

that's not an exercise other than in boredom.
Operation Idroite was an Operation in perceived enemy waters, not an Exercise in boredom. It was intended to excite more than boredom. That was the whole point of the Operation. It was never an Exercise, not even in name.

I can confect some 'outrage'.
OK.


The Integrity Initiative propagandists would not have been aboard for the Operation if it had been an Exercise instead of an Operation.

It was a planned provocation, for propaganda purposes, not some kind of innocent passage of carriage of goods and/or passengers from one place to another.

We have no place in Crimea.

We were one of the three Empires who won the Crimean War against Russia. Crimea was Russian before, during, and after that war on the Russian people of Crimea. We won in a war of attrition, mostly by disease.

Crimea is still Russian. It's not British or American or ffrench or Ottoman. It's Russian. They even had a vote on the matter in a plebiscite, just like wot the Gibraltarians did and just like the Falklanders would probably do, given a choice.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#155 Post by FD2 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:42 pm

I thought I should stop out of boredom but...

This is not and was not an 'exercise' (in the broadest sense of the word) in trying to get the Russians to withdraw from Crimea. I think most countries would think that would be tilting at windmills and a waste of time and money, so is completely off the point. What is an operation v what is an exercise? The ship sailed through disputed waters to point out that innocent passage (remember it exists for military as well as civilian ships?) exists even though the Russians think of it as their impenetrable space, their rectum almost.

Yes it was a planned passage to demonstrate the above and yes, no doubt, to poke the thug's boys in the eye and it had the desired reaction. All the rest of these reasons are confected nonsense. 'Exercise in boredom' - see above - just describes what it is like being cooped up sweating at action stations in overalls and anti-flash for hours with nothing happening, X( not an 'exercise' per se. Like an exercise in watching paint dry... (-|

'Wot Russian aggression? ' Dear me...also ask the Dutch on that one. And I'm glad that if, during a vote conducted in the most peaceful and non-threatening manner like Russian elections are, the locals declared their wish to become Russians again and hope they can enjoy their future freedom from the Ukrainian yoke, just as the UK enjoys freedom from aggression over Gibraltar and the Falklands.

And yes they regularly sail their ships up the British arse in the North Sea and the Channel but they are just enjoying 'innocent passage' after all. :)) =))

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#156 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:49 pm

FD2 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:42 pm
trying to get the Russians to withdraw from Crimea.

Piss poor effort.

Just like the Argies trying to get the Brits outta 'their' 'Malouines'.

Sure, we 'won' the Crimean War.

All we did when when we possessed that Russian territory was to wreck the port facility of Sevastopol maliciously.

Then we wrecked it, thoroughly.

That's all.

Crimea has been Russian for well over two hundred years. it's long past time that we accept that fact.

We still don't own it, any more than we 'own' Afghanistan, though we've tried to do that too many times enough times too.

Re-fighting the Crimean War is a deeply stupid idea.

The statistician with a lamp is already turning in her grave, and in many a hospital ward in her name nowadays, in a not so different context, so let's not make things worse, again, please.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#157 Post by FD2 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:56 am

Quote (from me):

This is not and was not an 'exercise' (in the broadest sense of the word) in trying to get the Russians to withdraw from Crimea.

Quote from previous post:

FD2 wrote:

trying to get the Russians to withdraw from Crimea.

Shurely shomething mishquoted here?

'Malvinas' to the Spanish speakers or even the Rioplatense speakers, but:

Sure, we 'won' the Crimean War.

All we did when when we possessed that Russian territory was to wreck the port facility of Sevastopol maliciously.

Then we wrecked it, thoroughly.

That's all.

Crimea has been Russian for well over two hundred years. it's long past time that we accept that fact.

We still don't own it, any more than we 'own' Afghanistan, though we've tried to do that too many times enough times too.

Re-fighting the Crimean War is a deeply stupid idea.

The statistician with a lamp is already turning in her grave, and in many a hospital ward in her name nowadays, in a not so different context, so let's not make things worse, again, please.


Historic crimes and misdemeanours are irrelevant, though nothing to be proud of, as no one in his right mind would try and invade Crimea now. Agree four attempts to occupy Afghanistan pure stupidity, as even the Russians know.

Tweaking the Russian tail anywhere is a different matter. My Dad was in Archangel in August 1942 while serving in an escort accompanying PQ17. I think he and the thousands of others who died or risked their lives to get supplies through would be mightily upset about how Russia has steadily become a disruptive force in the World under their billionaire leader-for-life. до свидания (do svidaniya)!

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#158 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:43 am

FD2 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:56 am
Historic crimes and misdemeanours are irrelevant, though nothing to be proud of, as no one in his right mind would try and invade Crimea now. Agree four attempts to occupy Afghanistan pure stupidity, as even the Russians know.

Tweaking the Russian tail anywhere is a different matter. My Dad was in Archangel in August 1942 while serving in an escort accompanying PQ17. I think he and the thousands of others who died or risked their lives to get supplies through would be mightily upset about how Russia has steadily become a disruptive force in the World under their billionaire leader-for-life. до свидания (do svidaniya)!
+1

Added with a great deal of respect for men like your father and a great deal of disrespect for men like Putin and those who facilitate him and his gangster state!
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#159 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:07 pm

It's the United States, not Russia, which is the disruptive global force of evil.

Sure, Russia did bomb, invade and occupy Afghanistan, but that was a failed attempt to support the liberal and progressive civil government of the day.

When the evil Empire did the same it was to impose the corrupt American restaurateur upon the Afghan people from afar. They revived the opium production business and let their corrupt puppet's family dominate the world's supply of heroin and make billions out of the profits of that evil trade.

That international behaviour by The Empire is the exact opposite of modern Russia.

It's also notable that Russia hasn't been sailing any of their warships through the Minches or in the Firth of Clyde.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#160 Post by Boac » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:48 pm

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Onward to victory, Comrades!

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