HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

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Pontius Navigator
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#81 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:40 am

TGG, drole.
They used to sortie on a Monday which put them in the Gap on Friday and continued south departing Monday. They never slipped through unnoticed.
On one occasion I returned from leave late Friday, technically midnight. The phone was ringing. 0600 Saturday I was off Rockall photographing the Kiev.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#82 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:48 am

Friday 1700 is a good time too, but make sure UP doesn't let the baddies know. There are a few 'historical (hysterical?) stories of 'silly' senior officers who pulled an alert at that time on a fighter station when the order to 'get the wing airborne' was cancelled but failed to reach the pilots.................... =))

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#83 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:42 am

"Innocent passage" exists to facilitate mercantile trade at sea. It was never intended to be an excuse for military aggression.

Sure, it's allowable for military vessels to proceed peacefully(**) through straights such as Dover and Gib in a peaceful manner, but this was not such a case.

At the time of the illegal incursion of Russian territory, there was a Notice to Mariners which explicity forbids warships from entering the 12 mile limit. Sure, it's in Russian language and script, but you can be sure that both FCO and MoD were fully aware that the provocative incursion was a direct contravention of international Law. The subsequently leaked " SECRET UK EYES ONLY" documents show that FCO was aware of that.

It subsequently became clear that FCO was against the Operation and only the MoD was in favour of it. FCO's stock-in-trade is diplomacy while MoD's business is making war not tea.

The following sketch of the NOTOM is in Russian and remains in force until the 31st of October. I suspect that in light of the recent contravention it will be extended and will be enforced rather more robustly than merely firing warning shots and dropping warning bombs.

Image


(**) It's important to note that "peacefully" does not include piping ACTION STATIONS and having the deck crew lock&load live rounds of heavy calibre ammunition and ponce around on deck in flash hoods and flash gauntlets.

Under the UNCLOS definition of "innocent passage" Article 19 paragraph 2 there were at least three breaches of the protocol which disqualify Defender's provocation from claiming to be "innocent passage". Count them for yourself. Mebbe there were more than three breaches.

It is notable that FCO is not claiming that the act of aggression was "innocent passage". They know better than to make such a silly claim.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#84 Post by FD2 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:53 am

Can a country legally close its waters inside a 12 mile limit like that?
What if the international community doesn't recognise the legality of the Russian occupation?
Piping action stations is clearly in response to a threat so I guess that's why they were 'poncing' about.
Did this map/chart come from RT?
Has the position of Defender been checked any other way apart from the Russian version.
Does the FCO normally comment on military matters?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#85 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:19 am

FD2 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:53 am
Can a country legally close its waters inside a 12 mile limit like that?
What if the international community doesn't recognise the legality of the Russian occupation?
Piping action stations is clearly in response to a threat so I guess that's why they were 'poncing' about.
Did this map/chart come from RT?
Has the position of Defender been checked any other way apart from the Russian version.
Does the FCO normally comment on military matters?

So many questions. So short a lunchtime, even a long one even by my standards.

I'll try to address each question, even the rhetorical ones.

Can a country legally close its waters inside a 12 mile limit like that?
To aggressive warships from an openly hostile nation? Hell yes!

What if the international community doesn't recognise the legality of the Russian occupation?
Then you have a Korea/Vietnam/Malvinas type situation.

Crimea has been Russian since long before the multi-Empire Imperial war against Russia to take Crimea over from Russia.

I've been called to attend a local emergency. I'll upload this half-arsed ditty now and get back to you later

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#86 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:57 am

When you do, UP, please as requested, explain this 'issue' with the incorrect AIS position you saw. I cannot see one.
"Innocent passage" exists to facilitate mercantile trade at sea.
Not according to Article 19.
at least three breaches of the protocol which disqualify Defender's provocation from claiming to be "innocent passage".
Specify.

Are you suggesting HMS Defender went on that route "piping ACTION STATIONS and having the deck crew lock&load live rounds of heavy calibre ammunition and ponce around on deck in flash hoods and flash gauntlets." as a matter of routine or do you think, as FD2 says, it might have been a reaction?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#87 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:26 pm

FD2 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:53 am
Can a country legally close its waters inside a 12 mile limit like that?
What if the international community doesn't recognise the legality of the Russian occupation?
Piping action stations is clearly in response to a threat so I guess that's why they were 'poncing' about.
Did this map/chart come from RT?
Has the position of Defender been checked any other way apart from the Russian version.
Does the FCO normally comment on military matters?
Piping action stations is clearly in response to a threat so I guess that's why they were 'poncing' about.
No. The pipe was made before the warship entered Russian territory. That warship was the threat, not an antidote to it.

It cannot be claimed that the warship was invoking Art 19 "innocent passage" as that Treaty forbids "any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations".

Clearly the aggressive and widely trumpeted loading of link ammunition into 30mm guns constitutes a threat of violent military force against the defence of the intruded state.

Did this map/chart come from RT?
Not so far as I know, but I wouldn't care if it did. The underlying data came from the Ukrainian maritime authorities who specified the location of the Separation Scheme zones to be outside the 12 nm territorial waters and from the Russian nautical authorities who issued the NOTOM.

Has the position of Defender been checked any other way apart from the Russian version.
I've no idea what the "Russian version" is. The reason why I don't believe the Integrity Initiative version of the track is because it is wholly inconsistent with the video evidence that the warnings shots really were fired, despite the Main Building denial, and that she turned to starboard in response to the warnings. The faked AIS track is incompatible with the video evidence which so clearly shows that she did turn to Starboard in response to the warning shots which were denied by the Main Building script version which was incompatible with the embedded Integrity initiative appointees who said that the shots and bombs were "out of range". Different scripts, clearly, which suggest to me (and was confirmed by the subsequent 'leak') that there was a behind the scenes squabble going on among at least two different factions behind the Op.

Does the FCO normally comment on military matters?
Yes. Very frequently. That's why they spend hundreds of millions every year funding the BBC World Service. That's why they co-fund (along with MoD; NATO; Atlantic Council and other dark trans-Atlantic forces) Integrity Initiative and why they write the script for their stooges such as the clowns who were 'embedded' on Defender for that black propaganda Operation.

By the way, on that matter: it's worth mentioning that UNCLOS Art 19 para 2 subsection (d) also precludes "any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State"

The propaganda Operation most certainly was aimed at undermining Crimea's national integrity as part of the Russian State.

FCO never claimed that the propaganda and provocative military action against Russia was "innocent passage". It's the consumers of Integrity Initiative ***** who are making that absurd claim, not the FCO. Quite clever propaganda, IMO. Baldrick would have an adjective for such a plan, methinks.


Any other questions, please?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#88 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:25 pm

Yes, mine.

By the way it is 'disputed' Russian territory. I was also not aware that a preparatory defensive act constituted a "threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity".

With all your military experience of command, UP, how would you have conducted yourself as Captain of the Defender?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#89 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:57 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:25 pm
UP, how would you have conducted yourself as Captain of the Defender?
I would have followed my orders, of course. I would have turned to Starboard away from Russian territory when gunfire warning shots and aerial bombs were dropped in front of me while Russkie-sounding voices on Ch16 were telling me to ****. Just like he did. I'da then facked orf, just like he did.

What kind of question is that?

C'mon, man. Pull yer socks up.

Ask a better question and ye might learn summink.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#90 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:14 pm

As for attaching the label of "disputed": ferfuxake man. Crimea was "disputed" by the Imperial invaders of the British Empire plus the ffrench Empire plus the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Crimea was, and still is, Russian, despite all that crap.

The "Malvinas" are still British, despite being "disputed". Gibraltar is still British, despite being "disputed". Those Chinese islands in the South China Sea which have been Chinese for hundreds of years are still Chinese, despite being "disputed" quite recently. There's a bit of clue in the name of the sea, but that's a different topic for another day.

Crimea is Russian. Has been for hundreds of years, ferfuxake.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#91 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:19 pm

I would have followed my orders, of course.
That's a relief to hear - that's what he did. So, what was wrong, then? Did you just not like what NATO did? What exactly is pulling your chain.

I see you (alone in the West) accept that Crimea is now legally part of Russia and not the Ukraine?

Please correct your incorrect statement about Article 19.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#92 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:31 pm

I have not incorrectly stated any part of UNCLOS Art 19.

Crimea is Russian and has never been anything other than Russian.

They had a Referendum on the matter within living memory, just like Gibraltar. The results of those referenda speak for themselves, in each case.

Gibraltar is not Spanish.

The Channel Islands are not ffrench.

The Falklands are not Argentinian, nor even Spanish.

Hong Kong is Chinese.

Next question, please?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#93 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:52 pm

I have not incorrectly stated any part of UNCLOS Art 19.
er - apart from ""Innocent passage" exists to facilitate mercantile trade at sea."? What does 19 say? Do you want me to post it? What do you understand by "Passage of a foreign ship"?

Explain why, if it is for 'mercantile trade' only it contains provisions for military actions.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#94 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:08 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:52 pm
Explain why, if it is for 'mercantile trade' only it contains provisions for military actions.
The reasons for the exclusions are to exclude militaristic abuses.

They are exclusions, not inclusions.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#95 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:51 pm

I give up - that is gibberish. Are you also suffering from Long Covid?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#96 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:58 pm

????

Explain yourself, man.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#97 Post by G-CPTN » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:44 pm

It has been announced that HMS Defender is the sole serviceable Type 45 destroyer.

Status of each Type 45 Destroyer in the fleet.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#98 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:01 pm

In terms of world peace, that's probably a Good Thing.

The **** things, as used by Boorish the Bear Slayer, are a menace to everybody, perhaps including their own crews.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#99 Post by FD2 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:23 pm

The ship was closed up at action stations or defence stations because of the expected violent response from the Russian forces. When bombs were dropped ahead they seem to have turned away from an escalated threat from the dictator's forces. There is some problem with the ship's AIS - was that before or after the 'incursion'? Everyone actually knew where the ship actually was. Subsequently two UK Government agencies gave slightly different accounts of the incidents. Doesn't normally happen like that does it?! Wires crossed, civil servants being uncivil whining monkeys.

The Russian propaganda people tried to make more out of it than it warranted because they were trying to legitimise their occupation of Crimea (whatever its history) and make out that this was some armed incursion to take on the Russian forces. Their version is straight from the pro-Putinists in RT. I can't see what there is to get so worked up about. Make no mistake, the West is dealing with a disruptive and dishonest thug here who has taken over and expanded his former KGB mantle to disrupt the West for his own political and monetary gain. I can't see much to admire there.

The Spanish do it regularly in Gibraltar without a major fuss being made. The Chinese claim the South China Sea as their own - did they name it that or was it named by others while China was engaged in civil wars and murdering millions of its people? I know that smacks of whataboutism but China's claim to the whole of the South China Sea has no more validity than the way Russia regards the Black Sea.

Defender tests the right of peaceful passage through disputed waters, the Russians react exactly as they were expected to and then they continue to harass British and Dutch warships away from the disputed coastal waters in what the Russians consider their own private sea. Thuggery pure and simple.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#100 Post by FD2 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:27 pm

The Type 45 is a little better than a menace to their own crews UP. According to that link one of them has problems, the other four are undergoing planned maintenance. Hardly a menace to their crews eh?

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