HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

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TheGreenGoblin
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#161 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:02 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:48 pm
images.jpg

Onward to victory, Comrades!
Make love, not war, comrade...



Those Chinese women terrify me... nobody's going to get their hands on their Spratly islands I can tell you!

In the spirit of further stoking the fire here, I suggest that Britain claim the Spratly islands on the basis that they are named after an Englishman... Britain will allow the Chinese to run some restaurants and takeaways on the islands as gesture of how reasonable and beneficent Albion really is... =))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spratly
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#162 Post by FD2 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:20 pm

That international behaviour by The Empire is the exact opposite of modern Russia. Just bombing and gassing civilians in Syria to support the legitimate and kindly government of Assad - to persuade so many of his people that he only feels love towards them? :x Sending off mercenaries to fight in Africa? I expect they all went there against his wishes. :ymdevil: Empire propaganda I expect. Agree they are certainly not clean either but two wrongs...

It's also notable that Russia hasn't been sailing any of their warships through the Minches or in the Firth of Clyde. Not surface vessels anyway. ;)))

We used to love beating up the AGI that was always stationed by Ailsa Craig trying to snoop on the Polaris SSBNs, but it wasn't really a 'warship', just a USSR naval vessel that must have been unsure of its position frequently and waiting for assistance. =))

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#163 Post by CharlieOneSix » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:20 pm

Following on from FD2's account of the Ailsa Craig AGI, here's an excerpt about that from War History Online of the "On Her Majesty's Nuclear Service" book by submariner Lt Cdr Eric Thompson MBE.....
The Captain, the lookout and I, three steely-eyed submariners all wearing uniform navy-blue berets and white roll-neck submarine sweaters, were staring grim-faced straight ahead while within hailing distance, a Soviet spy trawler was bombarding us with dance music. We increased speed and pulled away but as soon as we were over the horizon, we dived and returned, this time passing directly underneath the AGI and photographing what she was hiding under her skirts. It turned out that she had a torpedo tube! That was a surprise. Legally speaking, it made her a warship.
We often had one of these trawlers following us around and when we went to Flying Stations they were politely asked to move away a bit which they always did, returning to a closer position once flying ceased. All very gentlemanly!
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#164 Post by FD2 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:31 pm

We sometimes used to hover nearby and wave to them. They would usually wave back until the commissar saw what was happening and gave them a bollocking.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#165 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:46 pm

I'm not at all sure that I follow the line of logic which suggests that the Integrity Initiative propaganda mission aboard Defender is in some way justified by the ***** propaganda produced by II's sister propaganda outfit the White Helmets.

When I see stories of barrel bombs being rolled out the arse end of freighters and of helicopters in Syria I find it difficult to forget that in Oman "ex" RAF crews rolled barrels of Jet fuel and Avgas, with added molasses to make the witch's brew stick to the skin of the victims and with Schermuly flares strapped on the side of the oil drums as an ignition source, out of the arse end of Skyvans and out the side doors of 205s to immolate villagers who were thought to be Adoo sympathisers.

I see that Defender left Jebel Ali this morning. She then switched off her AIS, which is a permissible tactic for a warship.

Dunno where the Blaircraft carrier is, I guess one could probably figure it out by looking for her RFA companion. I don't think she can go much more than about a week without a RAS, so there will be an RFA somewhere near her.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#166 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:07 pm

RFA Tidespring left Singapore five days ago, heading East at 15kts.

I think that's what Sherlock Holmes would call a "clue" as to where the Blaircraft carrier is.

Looks like it's Game On in the South China Sea.

I suspect that the Chinks will be somewhat less patient with any NATO warships playing silly buggers in Chinese waters than the Russkies were .

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#167 Post by FD2 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:47 am

Right on cue, up pop the Chinese running dogs:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... a-Sea.html

Beijing threatens to 'expel' British warships as Big Lizzie arrives in the disputed South China Sea

Has any nation recognised China's claim to virtually all of the South China Sea?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#168 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:31 am

FD2 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:47 am

Has any nation recognised China's claim to virtually all of the South China Sea?
No!

The Chinese claims need to Dim sum...
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#169 Post by FD2 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:08 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:31 am
FD2 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:47 am

Has any nation recognised China's claim to virtually all of the South China Sea?
No!

The Chinese claims need to Dim sum...
:YMAPPLAUSE: Maybe North Korea for a share of the oil?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#170 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:48 am

UP, invalid comparison between Oman and Syria. One was legal and covert, the other illegal and overt. After all, we changed the rules.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#171 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:00 am

I do hope the QE does not go to action stations and start poncing about in flash gear - it might upset our Chinese friends.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#172 Post by FD2 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:23 am

It’s the poncing the Chinese really hate. X(

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#173 Post by FD2 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:25 am

Here they are!! https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... uth-china/

'Obey the rules' Beijing tells UK as Royal Navy enters disputed South China Sea

China claims the South China Sea and has grown increasingly assertive in the disputed waters



China has threatened stern action against the Royal Navy's carrier strike group if it does not "remain restrained and obey the rules" as it sails through the South China Sea.

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace set the scene earlier this month for a confrontation with Beijing when he said the deployment led by the flagship HMS Queen Elizabeth would sail on any route defined as legitimate under international law.

China claims the South China Sea despite an international court ruling in 2016 that it did not belong to the nation. Beijing has grown increasingly assertive as it builds military bases and airport runways on constructed islands in the disputed waters.

An editorial in the state-run newspaper Global Times said the strike group entered the sea on Sunday as part of the "UK's effort to show its presence in the region".

"We seriously warn this group: They are obliged to remain restrained and obey the rules. Please follow the current international shipping lanes and stay at least 12 nautical miles away from the Chinese islands and reefs," the editorial added.

Mr Wallace had declined to say whether the fleet would breach China's 12 mile zone.

"It's no secret that China shadows and challenges ships transiting international waters on very legitimate routes," he told The Times on July 20.

"We will respect China and we hope that China respects us ... we will sail where international law allows."

In a warning it said was being issued to the UK, Australia and Japan, the Global Times editorial stated: "We advise US allies to be particularly cautious, keep a sufficient distance from China's red lines, and refrain from pushing ahead.

"They must be bluntly told that if their warships rampantly behave as the US military does in the South China Sea, they will more likely become an example of China defending its sovereignty and territorial integrity - just as a popular Chinese phrase indicates: To execute one as a warning to a hundred."

It also said the "very idea of a British presence in the South China Sea is dangerous".

"If London tries to establish a military presence in the region with geopolitical significance, it will only disrupt the status quo in the region," it said.

"And the UK simply does not have the ability to reshape the pattern in the South China Sea. To be precise, if the UK wants to play the role of bullying China in the region, it is demeaning itself. And if there is any real action against China, it is looking for a defeat."

The tensions come after Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said there was a global "battle for hearts and minds" to attempt to reduce China's influence on international organisations.

Speaking in the Commons on July 6, Mr Raab said he was "very familiar with the routing" of the CSG and had discussed the deployment with his Chinese counterpart, insisting it was being done in a "confident but not confrontational" way.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#174 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:18 pm

I have started a CSG21 thread to follow the fun.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#175 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:02 pm

No doubt whatsoever that the RN will observe the 12 mile limit. The question is what constitues the 12 mile limit. I believe the Americans claimed the Barrents Sea was in international waters until they lost an RB47.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#176 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:41 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:02 pm
The question is what constitutes the 12 mile limit.
12 * 1,850 metres, ie 22.2km, from the Lowest Astronomical Tide shoreline of the identifiable land.

In 1279, when Upper Clyde shipbuilders which unamputated opposable thumbs were getting used to using an adze and Catholic priests were ripping the arms and legs off European Surveyors for claiming that the Earth isn't flat, the renowned (though not in Taunton) Hydrographer Guo Shoujing surveyed the two island groups that we know as the Paracels and the Spratleys.

I've no idea what Geodetic Datum or Spheroid he used, though.

My guess would be the Char Sui Datum on the Lychee Spheroid.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#177 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:00 pm

UP, by that measure you would be guilty and liable to arrest.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#178 Post by llondel » Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:36 pm

The BBC has picked up on the dubious AIS data.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58027363

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#179 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:15 pm

Nice head fake by Integrity Initiative there!

It wos the Russkys wot fed the fake track data of Operation Ditroite to the tame meeja of the Beeb and the Wail, not Integrity Initiative at all. :)) =))

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#180 Post by llondel » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:21 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:15 pm
Nice head fake by Integrity Initiative there!

It wos the Russkys wot fed the fake track data of Operation Ditroite to the tame meeja of the Beeb and the Wail, not Integrity Initiative at all. :)) =))
Yes, I did spot the implication as to who they were claiming was responsible. On the other hand, I'm quite prepared to believe that it's not all one-sided, although not sure about whether it's acceptable to fake tracks belonging to the other side. One could engineer all sorts of "invasions" of territorial waters if you wanted to. Huge potential for abuse by all sorts of parties.

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