British F35B down in the Med

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TheGreenGoblin
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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#21 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:35 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:07 pm
From the DM article:
After he ejected, the pilot was reportedly left dangling from the edge of the HMS Queen Elizabeth because the lines of his parachute became caught on the edge of the flight deck.
So the poor sod can't claim membership of the Goldfish Club. =))
Apparently he cut away from the chute and dropped some 60 feet into the sea where he was rescued. Does that count for membership of the club?
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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#22 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:39 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:35 pm
....Apparently he cut away from the chute and dropped some 60 feet into the sea where he was rescued. Does that count for membership of the club?
Now that's a conundrum. Maybe FD2 could answer it as he's a Goldfish Club member?

I think if I ended up hooked to the side of a 65,000 ton ship going about 25kts at flying stations I'd rather stay where I was until rescued!
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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#23 Post by G-CPTN » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:44 pm

The Goldfish Club is a worldwide association of people who have escaped an aircraft by parachuting into the water, or whose aircraft crashed in the water, and whose lives were saved by a life jacket, inflatable dinghy, or similar device.

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#24 Post by llondel » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:46 pm

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#25 Post by Boac » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:11 pm

Nice one, llondel. ^:)^

Goldfish? A tricky one. I think he/she qualifies.

PS I think I would only have cut away if I had been hanging by my goolies or neck.

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#26 Post by PHXPhlyer » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:58 pm

At least they gain membership in The Caterpillar Club. :YMAPPLAUSE: :-bd

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_Club

The Caterpillar Club is an informal association of people who have successfully used a parachute to bail out of a disabled aircraft. After authentication by the parachute maker, applicants receive a membership certificate and a distinctive lapel pin. The nationality of the person whose life was saved by parachute, and ownership of the aircraft are not factors in determining qualification for membership; anybody who has saved their life by using a parachute after bailing out of a disabled aircraft is eligible. The requirement that the aircraft is disabled naturally excludes parachuting enthusiasts in the normal course of a recreational jump, or those involved in military training jumps.

The Airborne Systems company of New Jersey continues the tradition of certifying members and awarding pins to this day.[1]

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#27 Post by G-CPTN » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:01 pm

Do you have to establish that the aircraft was 'unserviceable'?

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#28 Post by k3k3 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:23 pm

G-CPTN wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:01 pm
Do you have to establish that the aircraft was 'unserviceable'?
It was afterwards...

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#29 Post by Boac » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:06 pm

Going off the ramp jet-borne is not a nice situation. With the old 'bricks' like Phantoms and Buccs, you had a bit of flying speed to enable you to bank away from the ship's PIM and angle the ejection, but jet-borne the control is near-zilch in a Harrier if you lose the donk and if the 35 is going to 'auto-eject' you within 0.6 seconds of fan failure.............

Either way the risk of being run down by HMS QE is extremely high. Puts a whole new meaning to 'keelhauling' :ymsick:

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#30 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:58 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:06 pm
Going off the ramp jet-borne is not a nice situation. With the old 'bricks' like Phantoms and Buccs, you had a bit of flying speed to enable you to bank away from the ship's PIM and angle the ejection, but jet-borne the control is near-zilch in a Harrier if you lose the donk and if the 35 is going to 'auto-eject' you within 0.6 seconds of fan failure.............
The F-35-B (STOVL) aircraft has additional failure modes associated with Lift Fan, Vane Box, Lift Fan Drive Shaft, Roll Duct and Turbine failures. A typical pilot takes two seconds to react to the ejection klaxon or one second if warned in advance of a likely failure. In the case of a STOVL related failure, ejection must take place within 0.6 seconds. Hence it was necessary to install smart failure sensors on the aircraft to automatically fire the ejection circuit mounted in the back of the seat....
One wonders how many pilots will be ejected due to faulty sensors in the coming decade(s), although one could equally legitimately ask how many more lives will be saved due to this system's extraordinarily fast ejection time? Amazing technology whatever the case.



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Surely the lift engine cover, is tantamount to a huge airbrake, although it effectively ducts air into the fan, and the engine a big dead weight in normal flight?
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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#31 Post by FD2 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:17 pm

I think that when the Goldfish Club started in the 1940s there were hundreds of allied airmen from the War who had landed crippled aircraft in the sea and survived - in other words 'ditched'. Over the years there were still those who had ditched and survived but they became fewer and fewer because ejection seats meant survival rather than their slim chances of ditching a Phantom or Buccaneer and getting away with it. Lyn Middleton (the captain of Hermes in 1982) got away with it twice but that was back in Sea Venom days. The other reason membership of the Club dwindled was of course the ageing of the original membership and the real increases in reliability of the aircraft themselves.

That led to the broadening of eligibility to that in post #23. A few years ago someone who had had a forced landing in a light aircraft and slithered into a pond joined! That's not to decry their skill, experiences and adrenaline filled moments but the Club had to broaden eligibility rules to survive and be more 'inclusive'. The Chairman is Art Stacey who successfully ditched a Nimrod in the Moray Firth and I'm sure the 617 Squadron pilot will be welcomed with open arms by the Committee should he apply for membership.

It's interesting that despite the crap in the newspapers they know exactly where the wreckage is. Jet-borne in a Harrier as Boac says - things happen fast:


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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#32 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:49 pm

Fractions of a second between life and death...

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#33 Post by FD2 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:55 am

Persistent rumours are that an engine blank was left in place and ingested, but I can't believe that wouldn't have been spotted. It has two 'soft' ones - one in each intake. I hope it's not true. :(

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#34 Post by Boac » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:59 am

I'd be surprised if it was not 'noticed' until take-off, but we are always surprised by facts!

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#35 Post by FD2 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:05 pm

It has been discussed on TOP but I heard about it from a friend whose son is an RAF flying instructor. If one blank was in place I guess the engine would run but not develop full power when required and then if ingested no power would come from the downward swung nozzle at the tail. The front fan motor is also connected physically to the main engine at the back, which might have stopped due to ingestion of the blank. Someone will have signed the 700 to state that the blanks had been removed and they would be one short in the store they keep them in them during flying ops, but then the ultimate responsibility rests with the man in the cockpit following his pre-flight inspection.

I really hope this is just scuttlebutt because the wrath of God the services will descend if true - or have they developed a more enlightened attitude to these human factor mistakes these days? If it's a mixed service 617 Squadron will the man be dealt with by his own service?

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#36 Post by Undried Plum » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:50 pm

Just for discussion purposes, without prejudice (or metars), let's say that somebody forgot to remove one of the blanks.

I presume, but do not know, that the blanks are removed before the stickmonkey boards the aircraft.

If some killick signed the 700 (or whatever Pusser's equivalent is) to that effect then he is culpable, for sure.

If the hossifer should have checked either the 700 or should have checked the airframe in a basic preflight looksee, does the stickmonkey hossifer have some kind of mitigation for his own negligence?

In other words, who checks the checkers?

I'm nigh on half a century out of date in these things, but in my day I signed the 700 before I did my own preflight. I don't ever recall having signed the 700 to the effect that I'd done my preflight inspection. Come to think of it, I don't remember the 700 having entries for insertion/removal of such things as intake blanks and pitot covers or chocks either.

I know nothing of carrier deck ops of course, so mebbe it's all different there.

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#37 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:00 pm

Apologies for the intrusion of a person with no operation experience as a flight crew what is an engine blank?

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#38 Post by FD2 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:16 pm

RiS - It's a carefully shaped 'stopper' usually painted bright red, which sits in the engine intake(s) when the aircraft is shut down on the ground. The purpose is to prevent objects, rain, snow, hail etc blowing into the intakes and which might damage the engine when it is next started, by flying into the engine compressor blades. Here you see them - one in each intake, but as it's really a single engined aircraft for forward thrust purposes, both intakes lead to the rear thrust engine. The front fan has its intake above.
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The engine arrangement:

avf35_06.jpg

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#39 Post by FD2 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:27 pm

Plum - yes as far as I know you sign the 700 and when you do you check that all the various trades who have their own inputs into the pre-flight inspections have signed to say their part of the machine is 'S' or that they have completed their checks. The pilot does his walk round and checks visually that all the items he is supposed to check are OK - such as engine blanks removed, undercarriage pins removed, pitot covers removed, Dzus fasteners done up (don't suppose an F35B has them any more!), nothing sitting in the intakes, exhaust nozzles not splitting etc etc.

Whatever the exact nit picky details of the pre-flight procedure, I would hope that a more refined procedure had been instigated to safeguard the rather large tax payers' investment in an F35B than that which was used when we flew for HM back in the day. As I said earlier I cannot believe that an aircraft was taxied for a launch with an engine blank still in place and I really hope it's a false rumour. Blanks used to be removed and stowed somewhere by the island unless the aircraft was being flown ashore and they might be needed there.

BTW 'killick' is a general naval term for a leading hand, of any trade, leading seaman, cook, steward, air mechanic etc. ;)))

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Re: British F35B down in the Med

#40 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:53 pm

Do they still have a seat pin?

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