Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

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Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#1 Post by PHXPhlyer » Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:20 am

Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/06/world/br ... index.html

(CNN)A Russian submarine being tracked by a British naval warship on patrol in the North Atlantic more than a year ago hit a sonar the ship was towing, according to the UK Ministry of Defence.

"In late 2020 a Russian submarine being tracked by HMS Northumberland came into contact with her towed array sonar," a UK Ministry of Defence spokesperson said in a statement Thursday.
"The Royal Navy regularly tracks foreign ships and submarines in order to ensure the defence of the United Kingdom," the statement said.
A towed array sonar is a sensor spooled out by a ship when it is deployed.
According to the British Royal Navy, the HMS Northumberland carried out a "vital mission to protect UK waters and the nation's nuclear deterrent" in 2020.

Would that be a positive contact? :-?

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#2 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:02 am

This only became public knowledge as there was a film crew on board filming for Channel 5 in the UK - "Warship: Life at Sea", 2100Z on Mondays. The first episode was excellent, next one with the collision is this coming Monday.
Television footage captures the moment crew onboard HMS Northumberland sound the alarm, shouting “what the hell was that”, “*****”, “what the f*** have I just hit” as the boat crashes into its towed array sonar.
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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#3 Post by Boac » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:15 am

I did say to Mrs B last week after the prog that I hoped they hadn't just sent Northumberland 'on her own' to defend us in case summat broke =))

Turning tight across the stern of an active anti-sub boat doesn't seem like the wisest move........................

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#4 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:39 pm

It seems strange that they were taken by surprise. The whole point of the towed array is to measure the distance from the sub and to measure its position and speed.

In the video clip they seem to believe that the sub was on the Stbd side. If so, the sub had right of way.

Interesting that all of the reports claim that the sub hit the array, not the other way around. Why would that be? :-?

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#5 Post by Boac » Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:50 pm

'Right of way' does not give you the 'right' to turn hard 'left' and ram!
Interesting that all of the reports claim that the sub hit the array, not the other way around. Why would that be?
I don't know a way to 'hit' another vessel with something you are towing unless you yourself turn across its bows. The sub simply (but unwisely!) turned to cross behind a ship that was a fair bit longer than it reckoned. A bit of 'willy waving' that turned into a limp dick! The sub should have been well aware of the array with its sensors and knowledge.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#6 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:10 pm

Looking at the programme synopsis it sems I was incorrect in posting that the collision is to be shown on the Monday 10th episode.
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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#7 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:56 pm

I bet he wasn't showing towing lights or a diamond 💎 by day 😉

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#8 Post by Boac » Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:30 pm

Naughty naughty! Should play nicely with those nice Russians.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#9 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:32 pm

A kill's a kill. In this case a sensor kill.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#10 Post by FD2 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:23 pm

Does the 'give way to ships to starboard on a steady bearing' count in the case of submerged submarines? I think common sense would deem in appropriate for the sub to keep at a safe depth, which he appears to have done before catching the cable or sonar body. If it was merely on Northumberland's starboard side it might have been on a parallel heading in which case perhaps the overtaking rule would have been more appropriate? ;))) Either way it looks as though the sub tried to shake off her 'pursuer' by the sharp turn. Lots of this stuff went on with Soviet subs :-o but I suspect not so much with Russian ones these days. :x

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#11 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:14 pm

In any collision responsibility is always shared between the commanders of both vessels. Not necessarily equally of course, but they are both responsible for their failure to prevent the collision.

I should perhaps point out that the towed array is a not a tow-wire pulling a sonar. It's an oil-filled hose with a long string of several hundred hydrophones. In the civilian world we call them eels. They are used all the time in geophysical 3-D seismic work. The eels are part of the ship in every practical way.

A submariner would know all about the array as they use them too. The sub may not have heard the eel, though he should have presumed that a sub-hunter would be likely to have one deployed.

Yes, the rules of the road at sea apply to submarines too. And of course to sub-hunters.

The OOW's exclamation of "what **** have I hit? suggests a certain lack of situational awareness at best.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#12 Post by FD2 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:16 pm

Apply even to submerged submarines trying hard not to be detected?

I'd account for the OOW's exclamation as surprise - I'm sure he must have realised there was only one possibility - a bit like pilots' exclamations when sudden twangs occur. Much better if he'd said "Gosh! We seem to have had a collision between the sonar array and the Russian submarine!" I suppose. Silly bugger. [-X

Anyway military towed array sonar has obviously advanced since my time when it was just the body on the end of a wire and cable to try and get under the layers and was so useless it was removed from any ships that had it fitted. I think it was due to the cable fluttering in the water flow and eventually breaking.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#13 Post by Boac » Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:27 pm

UP wrote:"what **** have I hit? suggests a certain lack of situational awareness at best.
As FD2 says, I guess the sonar operator would not have expected that manoeuvre and can be excused your 'situational awareness'!

Not forgetting, of course, that when you are playing 'war games', rights of way have little bearing.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#14 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:50 am

I don't know any of the facts, especially the ones you are alluding to such as manoeuvring, however possibilities:

There was a layer and the submarine went shallow to avoid detection.
It was time for a comms window and he went shallow.
He was trying to sneak up astern of the Warship and forgot about the array.

Or

The array is less sensitive in the ahead or astern sectors and the warship was manoeuvring to change aspect (pure guess)

As FD2 mentions, getting it below the layer is better. Again speculation but it might have a body that can be controlled so its depth may be varied.

Lots of possibilities here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=towed+a ... FjzMPvZS_M

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#15 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:26 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:50 am
The array is less sensitive in the ahead or astern sectors and the warship was manoeuvring to change aspect (pure guess)

The array is extremely accurate in detecting and measuring the very precise distance, and therefore the cumulative relative bearings, of the emanating target from the array. It does so by measuring the phase differences of the arrival times of the sound wavefront at each one of the known positions of something like 1,024 hydrophones along a mile or two, whose positions are known accurately from the ship's track.

What it can't do, without additional data, is determine which side of the baseline, ie the eel, the target is on.

Sub skippers know that. They know how to play games such as maintaining the same distance from the nearest part of the array and ducking and diving under the array and coming up on the other side. The array itself can't discriminate that.

The frigate drivers know that too, so they alter course so as to check that the target is still on the side of the baseline that they thought it was.

The sub appears to me to have deliberately made its presence on the Stbd side quite conspicuous by popping up to display its search periscope and its comms mast within plain sight of a helo and perhaps from the frigate herself in broad daylight. Submarines tend not to display their presence on the surface without good reason. Russians are bloody good at chess while Pusser plays Uckers (Ludo).

I do wonder whether such subsequently submerged manoeuvrings played a part in this collision.

Of course, we'll never know.

The official script of the 'embedded' ones reads that the pesky Russky sub collided with Pusser's sonar, not the other way around, nor any combination thereof.

So that's that, then.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#16 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:57 pm

UP, both sides play the game. One time we bounced a survey ship. We were outside our area and they might have known that but they were flat footed.

Vis was about 400 metres and she had just despatched a and outboard into the fog. By the time we returned he was scooting back. She had a large hull section open and flush with the hull. There was no obvious way for it to close, no jacks or hinges. Next pass and she was buttoned up tight.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#17 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:37 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:57 pm
One time we bounced a survey ship. We were outside our area and they might have known that but they were flat footed.
As 'appens. Tell me more.



Pontius Navigator wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:57 pm
Vis was about 400 metres and she had just despatched a and outboard into the fog. By the time we returned he was scooting back. She had a large hull section open and flush with the hull. There was no obvious way for it to close, no jacks or hinges. Next pass and she was buttoned up tight.

Breathlessly, I ask what happened next?



Did the fukkin thing hit your sonar array?


Christ! I'm beginning to sound like Jethro, ferfuxake.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#18 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:54 pm

No. We were in a Nimrod and operating with all emitters silent and were just outside our operating area but inside navigational accuracy limits.

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#19 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:10 pm

No wonder you didn't clobbered the fukkin thing.

Somebody did, though.

A friggin, thing, p'raps?

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Re: Russian submarine collided with British warship part in rare event

#20 Post by FD2 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:07 am


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