Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

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TheGreenGoblin
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Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

#1 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:03 pm

The news that a Russian military commander may have been purposely crushed under the tracks of an armoured vehicle by his own men in the ongoing Ukraine conflict got me to thinking about the issues of morale and discipline in an army made up primarily, or to a significant proportion, of conscripts. While not fragging per se, such an attempt (he survived albeit severely injured) on an officer's life points to severe morale and discipline issues in certain Russian regiments and does beg more general questions about the military effectiveness of conscripts in wartime in any military force.

The history of this kind of thing in military history is an interesting one and made me think that the most egregious and shocking example of such violence against officers that I have heard of was associated with the Royal Navy in the murder of an officer and attempted murder of other crew by a security rating on board a nuclear submarine. Very shocking in that such a professional arm of a service where the psychological make up of the crews and security units would be scrutinized very carefully, was most unexpected!
On 8 April 2011, during a port visit to Southampton, Able Seaman Ryan Donovan abandoned his sentry post at the boarding ramp of submarine HMS Astute, and opened fire with an SA80 rifle on CPOs David McCoy and Chris Brown after they confronted him at the submarine's weapons locker; he then forced his way into the control room and opened fire, killing Lt Cdr Ian Molyneux and wounding Lt Cdr Christopher Hodge before being tackled to the ground by a visiting dignitary, city council leader Royston Smith, as he reloaded. Donovan pleaded guilty to Molyneux's murder and the attempted murders of Hodge, Brown, and McCoy and was sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum of 25 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragging

https://www.historynet.com/the-hard-tru ... -fragging/
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Re: Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

#2 Post by AtomKraft » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:45 pm

Morale is important.
Fragging generally comes from low morale.
Low morale generally comes from poor tactical outcomes
and these tend to come from poor strategic choices made by politicians.

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Re: Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

#3 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:03 am

Politicians take under consideration (and rightly so) the quality and effectiveness of the military and diplomatic corps they lead.

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Re: Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

#4 Post by barkingmad » Sat May 14, 2022 5:29 pm

Another “murderous act of insubordination”, this time in the US military;

https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p ... artial?s=r

A CM, but no punishment for the crime proven by the prosecution?

We can’t let this become a habit amongst the armed services or else chaos and defeat are on the cards.

But what should his punishment have been? Answers on a grain of rice, if any are available in the current food shortage pandemic...

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Re: Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

#5 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat May 14, 2022 5:45 pm

4 Air Force Academy cadets may not graduate for refusing to get Covid vaccine
Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin last year made the Covid-19 vaccinations mandatory for service members.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/4- ... -rcna28870

WASHINGTON — Four cadets at the Air Force Academy may not graduate or be commissioned as military officers this month because they have refused the Covid-19 vaccine, and they may be required to pay back thousands of dollars in tuition costs, according to Air Force officials.

It’s the only military academy, so far, where cadets may face such penalties. The Army and Navy said that as of now, not one of their seniors is being prevented from graduating at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, New York, or the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, due to vaccine refusals. The graduations are in about two weeks.

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin last year made the Covid-19 vaccinations mandatory for service members, including those at the military academies, saying the vaccine is critical to maintaining military readiness and the health of the force.

Military leaders have argued that troops for decades have been required to get as many as 17 vaccines in order to maintain the health of the force, particularly those deploying overseas. Students arriving at the military academies get a regimen of shots on their first day — such as measles, mumps and rubella — if they aren’t already vaccinated. And they routinely get regular flu shots in the fall.

Members of Congress, the military and the public have questioned if the exemption reviews by the military services have been fair. There have been multiple lawsuits filed against the mandate, mainly centering on the fact that very few service members have been granted religious exemptions from the shots.

Until the Covid-19 vaccine, very few military members sought religious exemptions to any vaccines.

Lt. Col. Brian Maguire, an Air Force Academy spokesman, said that while vaccination status may hinder the graduation of the four seniors, “there are still two weeks until graduation, so their status could change as the cadets weigh their options.”

According to Maguire, the four cadets — who are not named — have been informed of the potential consequences, and have met with the academy’s superintendent. In addition to those four, there are two juniors, one sophomore and six freshmen at the academy who have also refused the vaccine.

The military academies for years have required students under certain circumstances to repay tuition costs if they leave during their junior or senior year. Often those involve students with disciplinary issues or similar problems. The costs can be as much as $200,000, or more, and any final decision on repayment is made by the service secretary.

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Re: Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

#6 Post by Boac » Sat May 14, 2022 6:24 pm

Unfortunately a failure to obey orders is not a popular move as those of us with military experience will vouch. In the case of Bashaw, he should have been dismissed the service, as having any left-wing agitators in a military unit is bad for overall cohesion and discipline. Indeed, people have been shot for disobeying orders in some situations. Likewise the 'cadets' in PHX's piece.

As they say, if you cannot take a joke,....................? Which translates to 'if you don't like where you are, get out', since, except in wartime, no-one is forcing you to stay.

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Re: Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

#7 Post by barkingmad » Sat May 14, 2022 8:35 pm

boac sez:-- " In the case of Bashaw, he should have been dismissed the service, as having any left-wing agitators in a military unit is bad for overall cohesion and discipline."

Pray inform us as to how Bashaw has been classified as a 'left-wing agitator in a military unit'?

Seems to me he has more balls and more moral fibre than the rest who have been infected with "mass formation". ~X(

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Re: Fragging and other murderous acts of rank insubordination

#8 Post by Boac » Sun May 15, 2022 8:08 am

Surely "more balls and more moral fibre" does not prevent you being an agitator in a military unit?

I repeat
As they say, if you cannot take a joke,....................? Which translates to 'if you don't like where you are, get out', since, except in wartime, no-one is forcing you to stay.
There are your "balls and moral fibre". Even more-so in wartime.

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