Has the advent of the UAV rendered the tank obsolete?

[TheGreenGoblin]

The following quote from Flight Global's commentary on the ongoing war in Ukraine prompted the question underpinning this thread...

Notably, Moscow claimed the first combat use of a hypersonic missile, with a Kh-47M2 ‘Kinzhal’ weapon having been launched from a Russian air force MiG-31K against an underground weapons storage facility on 18 March. Its use points to a new chapter of airborne warfare which already also involves weapons development activities in China and the USA.

Russia’s military also suffered heavy losses on the ground. Ukraine’s highly effective use of Turkish-produced Baykar Bayraktar unmanned air vehicles against armoured personnel carriers and main battle tanks has again placed doubt around the modern-day utility of such equipment. This followed similar destruction seen during the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war's.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/wh ... 20.article

Bayraktar UAV


https://baykartech.com/en/uav/bayraktar ... fb5cb40e15

[llondel]

If you think of naval warfare with battleships and how they became less of a good idea when aircraft carriers became popular in the Pacific in WW2 then you can see a similar thing happening with tanks and the UAVs.

[boing]

This has been a steadily unfolding inevitability, the strange circumstance is that the technology required to make these systems possible has been provided by advances in technology in the civilian sector not the military one. Increasing the power and capabilities of cell phones while reducing their size has been a key factor. Think about your cell phone, it has incredible communication ability, even greater than that it is allowed to use due to various regulations, it has excellent GPS capability and an advanced imaging system and all of this in a small package that is continually getting smaller. All of these ever increasing capabilities can be cross connected with already complex civilian drone systems - simply add explosives.

There is on the internet a video of a drone flying at very low level using terrain following technology, a really frightening possibility for any troops or armour in the open. This was a civilian "toy", I would say the military is trailing civilian developments in drone technology.

I recently saw an interesting accidental demonstration of the trends. We were at a somewhat sensitive location to carry out some development work and the site manager approved of my companion taking some drone photos to aid with the project. The drone was launched as normal from the office area and directed to the work site - which it refused to enter acting as though it was bouncing off an invisible wall. We later found that the site has some type of exclusion zone for RPVs that even the site manager did not know about but it was very precise and effective.

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[llondel]

There is on the internet a video of a drone flying at very low level using terrain following technology, a really frightening possibility for any troops or armour in the open. This was a civilian "toy", I would say the military is trailing civilian developments in drone technology.

How do you know the military doesn't already have that capability? The scary part for troops is that civilians in a resistance movement can also do it because it is an ideal guerilla tactic, possibly even automated to be triggered by an approaching convoy or patrol with those setting it up a safe distance away when things happen.

[TheGreenGoblin]

This has been a steadily unfolding inevitability..

An interesting post which highlights how this democratization of this powerful technology makes the potential for asymmetric war more likely, and definitely more effective.

I note that lightly armed Ukrainian troops have been using off road motorcycles to outflank the Russian juggernaut on the roads, using the mobility of the bikes and vectors from drones to spring multiple surprise attacks using hand held anti-tank missiles to great effect!

[TheGreenGoblin]

The sophistication of the portable anti-aircraft missiles being used by the Ukrainians also makes life very awkward of Russian aircraft at low level.

Russian helicopter has been shot down by Ukrainian forces using an advanced British missile system.

Dramatic footage circulating online shows the high-velocity Starstreak projectile destroying an aircraft in the Luhansk region of eastern Ukraine.

Starstreak missiles are thought to be the fastest ground to air missiles in the world and are a key part of Britain’s ground-based air defence capability.

The portable system is built by defence firm Thales at their plant in Belfast and was used to protect London during the Olympic Games in 2012.

The Ministry of Defence has said it’s the first time the missile has been used to bring down a Russian plane during the conflict, according to reports.

In the video, the helicopter can be seen hovering in the sky before bursting into flames and falling to the ground after its tail is struck by a missile.

Britain announced on March 9 that it would be supplying the missiles to Ukraine.

The high velocity missiles can travel over a kilometre in less than a second and can be used to counter the threat from fighter aircraft, helicopters and unmanned air systems.

Prior to sending the missiles to Ukraine, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said: “As the conflict intensifies, the Russians are changing their tactics and the Ukrainians need to too…

“We can all see the horrific devastation inflicted on civilian areas by Russian artillery and airstrikes – indiscriminate and murderous. It is vital therefore that Ukraine maintains its ability to fly and to suppress Russian air attack.

“To date the international community has donated over 900 man portable air defence missiles and thousands of anti tank guided weapons of varying types…

“But the capability needs strengthening so in response to Ukrainian request the Government has taken the decision to explore the donation of Starstreak high velocity and portable anti air missiles. We believe this system will remain within the definition of defensive weapons but will allow the Ukrainian fore to better defend their skies.”

[Boac]

Yup - I reckon that is a kill As I said earlier, these 'wars' are a great opportunity to test out one's weapons, for both sides.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Yup - I reckon that is a kill As I said earlier, these 'wars' are a great opportunity to test out one's weapons, for both sides.

awkward of for Russian aircraft at low level.

The Starstreak system is quite something.

[boing]

There are multiple videos on the web of commercial drones that have been specifically built to apply treatments to large areas of crops replacing ag-aircraft.

A drone that can maintain a preset height above the ground, precisely follow a pre-planned route meanwhile dispensing chemicals. Why should I feel a little nervous?

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[TheGreenGoblin]

There are multiple videos on the web of commercial drones that have been specifically built to apply treatments to large areas of crops replacing ag-aircraft.

A drone that can maintain a preset height above the ground, precisely follow a pre-planned route meanwhile dispensing chemicals. Why should I feel a little nervous?

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The concept of a drone swarm using AI technology, like a neural net coupled to the technologies you allude to co-ordinate a swarm attack on a target is the stuff of dystopian nightmares! I suspect we are within less than a decade from that scenario, with these swarms, using the whole complement of possible deadly weapons, including chemical agents to wreak destruction and death!

[larsssnowpharter]

A quick search shows a number of companies marketing anti drone and swarm technologies. Rumour has it that an Israeli solution may be fitted to the M1 Abrams.

I don't think the tank is obsolete...yet. The OPs question was likely because of the dismal performance of Russian armour during the ongoing unpleasantries.

However, in this example it seems that armour was operating without cas, air superiority or proper infantry support.

[Alisoncc]

British missile takes down Russian drone.

A state-of-the-art British missile has blown a Russian drone out of the sky in its first recorded use in Ukraine.

The Martlet, a laser-guided lightweight multirole missile (LMM), is understood to have been sent in secret to Ukraine by Britain but was filmed being launched by a soldier of the 95th Airborne Assault Brigade on Sunday.

Footage of the attack shows the soldier aiming a shoulder launcher at an Orlan-10 reconnaissance drone in the Kharkiv region before firing the 1,100mph missile. Cheers are heard moments later after the warhead hit the aircraft with a concentrated explosive charge and fragmentation blast.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -zhbq7kv5p

[TheGreenGoblin]

Martlet armed UAV.

Schiebel Camcopter S-100

[TheGreenGoblin]

British missile takes down Russian drone.

A state-of-the-art British missile has blown a Russian drone out of the sky in its first recorded use in Ukraine.

The Martlet, a laser-guided lightweight multirole missile (LMM), is understood to have been sent in secret to Ukraine by Britain but was filmed being launched by a soldier of the 95th Airborne Assault Brigade on Sunday.

Footage of the attack shows the soldier aiming a shoulder launcher at an Orlan-10 reconnaissance drone in the Kharkiv region before firing the 1,100mph missile. Cheers are heard moments later after the warhead hit the aircraft with a concentrated explosive charge and fragmentation blast.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -zhbq7kv5p

The Orlan-10 is an underwhelming piece of kit!

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/u ... 55722.html

[TheGreenGoblin]

Post moved to relevant Ukraine thread. viewtopic.php?f=64&t=6954&p=332067#p332067