Oh dear - red faces as well?

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#161 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:31 pm

It certainly does not get better. (This is behind a paywall but a 'free' one) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bull ... -wlpwlk9hr

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#162 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:02 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:31 pm
It certainly does not get better. (This is behind a paywall but a 'free' one) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bull ... -wlpwlk9hr
Sorry can't get that, here at least.
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#163 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:12 pm

From the article:
A female member of the Red Arrows has claimed she quit the display team after making a complaint about bullying and harassment, it can be revealed.

The officer, in her early thirties, joined the elite team this year but after six months lodged a complaint to senior ranks about behaviour that made her feel “uncomfortable”, an RAF source said. They said the woman had raised concerns about a “toxic” environment and that the complaint covered the period up until this summer.

The claim comes after The Times revealed that more than 40 personnel, several of them young female recruits, have given evidence to an inquiry into the Red Arrows in the biggest scandal in the team’s 57-year history. As many as four personnel are now subject to investigation by the RAF and could be thrown out of the force.

Allegations included at least 13 instances of alleged misconduct, including misogyny, harassment, sexual assault, bullying and indecent exposure. It is unclear when the inquiry will conclude and whether it will be made public.The RAF source said: “Although things have happened since the last story came to light, the toxic behaviour is still going on and not enough is being done about it.”

In the latest case, the woman is said to have complained to senior officers about a series of issues within the unit of about 130 people.

Her case is particularly significant because it details bad behaviour from this year, at which point several servicemen had already been moved out of the elite force amid allegations they had acted inappropriately. It also casts doubt on suggestions by individuals in the RAF that problems in the Red Arrows were historical.

Philip Ingram, founder of the Independent Defence Authority (IDA), said he was “aware of the issues highlighted by this young officer”, adding that he “remains concerned that there is no real change in the culture in the Red Arrows”.

He said: “I intend to write to Sir Mike Wigston [the air chief marshal who is head of the RAF] with my concerns around this case, as it continues to highlight a failure in command and culture suggesting nothing has changed from what the IDA brought to his attention over a year ago.”

In August two individuals came forward who had given evidence to the ongoing inquiry into the Red Arrows.

One told The Times that individuals in the squadron “got away with everything” before an inquiry was launched last December by Wigston.

Another source said new female recruits were considered “fresh meat”. She said in August: “At the moment many females are at risk because there are numerous toxic pockets within the air force but there is no urgency to act.”

A third source helping with the inquiry said the allegations about the Red Arrows were the “tip of the iceberg”…..

The defence select committee, which in 2020 carried out a landmark inquiry on women in the armed forces, has reopened its inquiry following a series of scandals. The committee has asked for any new evidence as part of a follow-up after 4,000 women came forward to give evidence to the first inquiry. The women said they had experienced bullying, sexual harassment and discrimination in the armed forces.

There was also said to be “truly shocking evidence” of rape and sex for promotion or advancement.

The RAF said: “The RAF has a zero-tolerance approach to unacceptable behaviour and will complete thorough investigations into any allegations, and take appropriate action. However, we will not offer comment on the circumstances of individual personnel moves.”

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#164 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:48 am

'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#165 Post by Rwy in Sight » Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:13 am

I am sorry to report I spent some time in the base under consideration last Saturday but I didn't ask the local crews about the incident.

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#166 Post by Boac » Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:24 am

Thanks, ex-A. So, the mud in the pool slowly clears, but the bottom of the pond doesn't look too healthy. I am really sorry to see the way the team has gone.

That is strange - the Mail article suggests dismissals without formal Courts Martial. I have never heard of that before.

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#167 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:35 am

A dismal story, almost Greek in its tragedy, what with a pilot having outstanding personal qualities, falling to disaster through the combination of a personal failings and reckless, possibly criminal, hubris. From those that have been given much by the Gods, much is expected.

That said, the people I feel most sorry for in this situation are the victims, and this pilot's poor family, that have been affected by this pilot's foolishness (one among others possibly).
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#168 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:41 am

Yes indeed Boac it must be very disturbing, if that is the right word, for you.

On what grounds can they be dismissed? Most odd. No Courts Martial. No police action. To me this sounds like a case for unfair dismissal.

TGA my bet is on a groped boob or bottom. Happened a thousand times before and will happen a thousand times again.
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#169 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:00 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:41 am

TGA my bet is on a groped boob or bottom. Happened a thousand times before and will happen a thousand times again.
Things have moved on in the world generally methinks Ex-Ascot. I know that if I had to tried to "cop a feel" with my female staff back in my corporate office days, i.e., civvy street, I would have been fired immediately with loss of salary, bonus etc. It seems that the RAF has, belatedly, joined the 21st century.

Am I perfect, no, while back in SA last year, admittedly while primed with a few glasses of wine I gave one of the very attractive young ladies serving us, a friendly pat on her perfect super critical wing shaped bottom, to which she gave me a friendly pat on my head, smiled, and said that if I did that again she would thump me. I would have deserved it too. My friend at the table pointed out that under SA law, what I had done was illegal and that I could have been prosecuted if she had been minded to make a complaint which she wasn't. Best to keep one's hands and other bodily extensions to oneself methinks. :ymblushing:
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#170 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:33 am

My hands are not big enough to grope any bottoms or boobs around here.
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#171 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:36 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:33 am
My hands are not big enough to grope any bottoms or boobs around here.
How wena Ex-Ascot.... =))
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#172 Post by 4mastacker » Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:39 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:41 am
......On what grounds can they be dismissed? Most odd. No Courts Martial. No police action. To me this sounds like a case for unfair dismissal......
An Admin Discharge is a convenient way of dealing with "problems". For example, failing a CDT will result in an AD without the need for a tap dance on the CO's carpet/a journey to Bulford or transgressing if already on a Formal Warning. I suspect there's more being going on in the background than has been publicly admitted.
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#173 Post by Boac » Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:00 pm

No expert on RAF law, but well outwith my experience. I would have expected the termination of a commission to require a Court Martial, unless, I suppose, the officer 'Resigns' from the service, in which case I suppose he or she could be 'discharged'? Does this count as a 'dishonourable discharge', in which case with what penalties?

4ma - did you ever see this happen in your time to an officer?

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#174 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:46 pm

Is the RAF subject to similar Administrative Rules and Regs as outlined in AGAI67 at 67/3-2 (used by the army) or does a variation to that pertain for the RAF?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... AI_067.pdf

I suppose I could read though the most recent The Queen’s Regulations for the Royal Air Force but am not apt to do so now. Interesting stuff mind.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... sthrough=1 (see page 15).
Terminate an officer’s commission, including being called upon to retire, relinquish or resign his commission or be transferred to the reserve, or be compulsorily retired or
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#175 Post by 4mastacker » Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:11 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:00 pm
No expert on RAF law, but well outwith my experience. I would have expected the termination of a commission to require a Court Martial, unless, I suppose, the officer 'Resigns' from the service, in which case I suppose he or she could be 'discharged'? Does this count as a 'dishonourable discharge', in which case with what penalties?

4ma - did you ever see this happen in your time to an officer?
Only once that I am aware of - it followed the death of an airman in his Flight. The officer involved, and who had graduated from Cranwell just a few months previously, was already subject to QR1021 action. He was detached away within a few days and we were later told he had been SNLR'd. I'm not aware of any CM arising from the incident.
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#176 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:29 pm



I wonder what the ex-RAF folk here think of this chap? Ex RAF himself.

https://www.fastjetperformance.com/

Whatever the case he certainly parleyed his post service career in an interesting direction, and I enjoy his style, which is not for everybody I guess.
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#177 Post by Boac » Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:27 pm

I reserve comment on Tim.

The whole issue, however, is TOXIC. I think the major point I really agree with Tim on is why the team leader did not sort this out. It should never have happened. Nor, I'm sure, would it in my day.

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#178 Post by Ex-Ascot » Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:40 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:27 pm
I reserve comment on Tim.

The whole issue, however, is TOXIC. I think the major point I really agree with Tim on is why the team leader did not sort this out. It should never have happened.
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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#179 Post by Boac » Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:41 am

From RAF sources I understand that as a part of the 'Woke' drive in the military, it is now procedure for the AFB to be able to 'dismiss' someone for 'sexual misconduct' without a CM.

I imagine a few occifers will be looking over their shoulders............. =))

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Re: Oh dear - red faces as well?

#180 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:35 am

Boac wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:41 am
From RAF sources I understand that as a part of the 'Woke' drive in the military, it is now procedure for the AFB to be able to 'dismiss' someone for 'sexual misconduct' without a CM.

I imagine a few occifers will be looking over their shoulders............. =))
Golly, glad I got out and have the pension.
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