Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

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CharlieOneSix
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#21 Post by CharlieOneSix » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:04 pm

FD2 wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:57 pm
I remember it was b..... awkward to use and responsible for some embarrassing prangs! Round again! X(
For those of a certain age this comes to mind...."Left hand down a bit, Mr Phillips"....then...."Everybody down!"
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#22 Post by FD2 » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:07 pm

PHXPhlyer wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:52 pm
What is the status of the port shaft? :-?
Is its lubrication also compromised? :-s
If so, a long way to drydock under tow.

PP
Not disclosed so hopefully OK.
No it will be a separate system.
Yes - especially if the starboard shaft is locked - as there will be massive drag from its propeller. Rosyth with its tidal restrictions and awkward entry and exit is quite a trek and not a docking that will only take a few days. The trouble is you can't examine the shaft condition where it goes through the stern gland while the ship is still in the water. :(
The dry dockings were supposed to be few and far between during major refits so there doesn't seem to have been much thought given to developing suitable secure dry docks at Devonport or Portsmouth.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#23 Post by FD2 » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:11 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:04 pm
FD2 wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:57 pm
I remember it was b..... awkward to use and responsible for some embarrassing prangs! Round again! X(
"For those of a certain age this comes to mind...."Left hand down a bit, Mr Phillips"....then...."Everybody down!"
Do you remember that jetty/pontoon thing at Sandquay they used for practising coming alongside? I'm surprised it stayed afloat at times! :-B :-o :))

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#24 Post by Karearea » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:14 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:04 pm
FD2 wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:57 pm
I remember it was b..... awkward to use and responsible for some embarrassing prangs! Round again! X(
"For those of a certain age this comes to mind...."Left hand down a bit, Mr Phillips"....then...."Everybody down!"
Followed by "Ooh, nasty!"
And with the morn, those angel faces smile...

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#25 Post by CharlieOneSix » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:20 pm

FD2 wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:11 pm
Do you remember that jetty/pontoon thing at Sandquay they used for practising coming alongside? I'm surprised it stayed afloat at times! :-B :-o :))
Yes! Rammed it myself in a Picket Boat!

Surely this shaft problem isn't a design issue as I presume the QE is identical.
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#26 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:36 am

From a comment in the DT
Has anyone else noticed that in these days of box-ticking "positive" discrimination, more and more things that once never used to go wrong now regularly do?
Personally, I am still awaiting the truth about how that $1bn Norwegian frigate ended up at the bottom of a fjord, managing to run into a static wharf that turned out to be a manoeuvring tanker, yet no one has been dismissed the service. Same with those two US frigates running into ordinary merchantmen plying their trade in recognised seaways in broad daylight.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#27 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:50 am

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:04 pm
FD2 wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:57 pm
I remember it was b..... awkward to use and responsible for some embarrassing prangs! Round again! X(
For those of a certain age this comes to mind...."Left hand down a bit, Mr Phillips"....then...."Everybody down!"
Ah, I remember this on the radio (BBC recordings on the English Service of the SABC). The Navy Lark! Used to listen to it as a child! Those commands were always followed by a resounding crash as the ship hit the jetty or what obstacle they hadn't avoided. ;)))

Plenty of old recordings available on the wonder of YouTube...





Going back to the current unfortunate lack of grease, it sounds like a major oversight, even if the system is partially automatic! However for true, toe curling, incompetence one only has to look at the South African Navy's dismal recent (last two decades) record that has resulted in major damage to one of their then brand new German diesel submarines, amongst a myriad of other accidents, failings and general operational chaos since then.
August 20, 2012: One of South Africa's three German built submarines (SAS Queen Modjadji) recently (July 17th) was damaged when it accidentally collided with the ocean floor during a training exercise. The Queen Modjadji was the only one of three new submarines (entering service between 2005-8) that was operational. The other two were laid up for "maintenance." Now the Queen Modjadji is as well, although the recent collision did not damage the pressure hull. But there was a visible dent in the outer hull and some internal damage.

One of these new Type 209 submarines has been out of service for five years, ostensibly for maintenance. But it turned out that the main reason was that there were not enough qualified sailors available to operate the boat. Further investigation revealed that this was not just a problem with the three new submarines.

The South African Navy has 18 warships and they are expensive to operate. In an effort to deal with these high operating expenses, and a shrinking defense budget, ships are being kept in port more often. Thus the navy budget only allows ships to spend 5-10 percent of their time at sea. The U.S. Navy has its ships at sea about 50 percent of the time. This is the main reason the American fleet is the most effective in the world. Being the largest fleet on the planet helps, but having a qualitative and quantitative edge creates an unbeatable combination.

In the last seven years the South African navy received four new MEKO (NATO) type frigates and three Type 209 submarines. These German built boats displace 1,300 tons, are 59 meters (183 feet) long, have eight torpedo tubes, and carry 14 torpedoes and a crew of 36. These are world class subs. But the South African Navy needs $1.2 million a year to operate each Type 209 boat. The new frigates are equally expensive. The government has not been providing enough money to cover all those costs. To make matters worse, the expanding oil industry and other high tech sectors of the economy have been tempting experienced officers and NCOs to leave the navy, especially the submarine service. Civilian jobs offer experienced sailors two or three times what the navy is paying them. The navy needs about 150 submarine sailors to provide full time crews for these boats. The navy has not been able to obtain enough qualified submarine sailors. As a result, subs don't go to sea much and when they do they are being handled by poorly trained and inexperienced crews. This will become an issue as the recent accident involving the Queen Modjadji proceeds. Another embarrassing aspect of the Queen Modjadji incident was that it was the first South African sub to have a black captain (Commander Handsome Thamsanqa Matsane, who took command four months ago).

South African politicians believe that having a lot of ships in commission, even if they don't go to sea much, provides the potential for putting a lot of ships out there if the need arises. Left unsaid is the fact that sending a lot of inexperienced crews to sea increases the risk of accidents. Ships are complex beasts and the seas, especially around South Africa, are rough, often extremely rough. This can be a fatal, for inexperienced crews, combination.

But many nations with large numbers of warships, staffed by inexperienced crews, believe that they will never have to use these ships a lot, in wartime or otherwise. That's a reasonable assumption for South Africa, which is surrounded by nations with even more decrepit armed forces. So the politicians are playing a cynical game, funding relatively large armed forces, which they cannot afford to adequately train, safe in the knowledge that they are unlikely to be found out.

The South African politicians are also living in the past with regards to the armed forces. Back in 1989, 4.5 percent of GDP was spent on defense and the armed forces were large and well trained. Now, defense gets 1.2 percent of GDP and the armed forces have not shrunk 73 percent to adjust for the smaller budget. Unwilling to cut the force in line with the smaller budget, the politicians prefer to run a scam. The sailors complain but at least they still have jobs. To South African politicians that's a reasonable outcome. To make matters worse, there is more corruption. A German investigation four years ago revealed that some $40 million in bribes was demanded by South African politicians, and paid, to ensure that a German firm got the contract to build the three subs. No bribery prosecutions of South African politicians resulted from the German investigation (which the German government tried to keep secret). The three German subs cost South Africa nearly one billion dollars.
That synopsis neglects to directly mention the brand new German submarine whose electrical system was wrecked by the attachment to the wrong phase power source in the harbour. The submarine was effectively mothballed for 7 years by that mistake.
The submarine SAS Manthatisi is still in the dock as she undergoes maintenance related to electrical systems – the batteries were damaged in 2007 when a sailor plugged in an incorrect electrical system. According to the source, the entire electronics of the submarine were damaged when this occurred. A new battery was ordered but Manthatisi’s refit will only be completed in July next year, leaving SAS Queen Modjaji and SAS Charlotte Maxeke operationally available.
https://www.defenceweb.co.za/security/m ... personnel/
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#28 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:27 am

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:20 pm
Surely this shaft problem isn't a design issue as I presume the QE is identical.
I think there was poor monitoring of the machinery in that space. If it got to the point where the shaft itself was damaged then the ship will be out of service for months. When flying we have sensors in place to monitor Ts and Ps which we scrupulously monitor in flight, so I would have thought that there would be sensors to monitor temperatures of the thrust and plummer bearings and stern gland in case someone *forgot to top up the oil or grease or a seal gave way to allow a leak. As you say I don't believe it could be a design problem as QE seems to be running correctly now. An itch at the back of my brain also hopes to God it wasn't deliberate sabotage.

There will be a Board of Enquiry now and then possibly a court martial or two. It looks a little more serious than defaulters at the Captain's Table, disregarding the embarrassment! I'll be interested to see what information is released by MOD(N).

* I can't imagine such incompetence really.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#29 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:59 am

HMS Prince of Wales, the £3bn pride of the Navy, grinds to halt over ‘failure to grease propeller shaft’

‘Embarrassment’ as new aircraft carrier's landmark mission to the US hangs in the balance over major fault

By Dominic Nicholls, Associate Editor and Danielle Sheridan, Defence Editor 30 August 2022 • 6:27pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/0 ... propeller/

The Royal Navy’s new £3 billion aircraft carrier may have ground to a halt over a failure to grease the propeller shaft, naval sources have said.

HMS Prince of Wales’s “landmark mission” to the United States is hanging in the balance and may have to be cancelled.

Specialist Royal Navy divers have been inspecting the ship since it broke down on Sunday evening, less than 24 hours after setting sail for the US.

Naval sources have told The Telegraph initial thoughts are pointing to a lack of lubrication on the starboard side at the point the propeller shaft leaves the interior of the hull.

Any overheating at this point due to friction could have damaged the metal shaft, sources have said.

A better understanding of the problem, upon which navy chiefs can make decisions, is not expected before the end of the week.

However, it is thought likely that a period in dry dock will be required, to have a proper look at the area and carry out repairs.
'Significant damage'

The dry dock in Rosyth, Scotland, is thought to be the most likely base for any maintenance. The facility is owned by Babcock.

Suggestions the ship hit a submerged object have been discounted, added the source.

The 65,000-ton ship has been moved from the Sandown anchorage to nearby Stokes Bay, a more sheltered area that would allow divers to conduct detailed inspections.

It will take days to move the ship to Rosyth, should such a decision be taken - putting at risk training with the US Navy, the Royal Canadian Navy and the US Marine Corps, including flight trials with F-35 fighter aircraft.

A senior defence source told The Telegraph that while they would have to wait for the divers to confirm what the source of the issue was, they had "a good idea what the problem is".

The source added: "We think there is significant damage to the starboard shaft. It's not working."

The source also said that this would prove a "major problem to fix" and said they would investigate how this had happened.
'Extremely unfortunate'

Meanwhile Admiral Lord West, the former First Sea Lord, said the timing of the issue was “extremely unfortunate".

"You’d think when they were doing trials they might have spotted it," he added.

"If it’s not an inherent design fault, it can be repaired quickly - and if it is, then someone needs their wrist slapped."

However, he said the issue was an "embarrassment", because of the importance of the ships.

"The Americans see our carriers as hugely important because they need the assistance, as their number of carriers has dwindled and they see threats everywhere,” he said. “If the war in Ukraine expands and it becomes a world war then the front line becomes the sea, because we are a maritime nation."

The departure of HMS Prince of Wales from Portsmouth had already been delayed over the weekend due to a technical issue, although it is not known if the incidents are related.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#30 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:12 am

As FD2 says, if the shaft has been damaged, for example, bent due to uneven heating, due to lack of lubrication (for whatever reason) at critical bearing points, then the ship will be in dry dock for months. It is also possible that damage may have occurred to the bearings and seals when the turbine(s) were last run down, as too rapid cooling can also lead to shaft distortion which will only become apparent, usually as a rapidly worsening vibration, that may be exacerbated by the failure of the previously damaged bearings and/or seals, when the turbines are run up again and the shaft turned through the relevant gear boxes etc.

The technical investigation will be a complex one.
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#31 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:51 am

Vacancy, one grease monkey. Maybe even an engineering officer. There must be routine checks, records kept and reviewed.

Good job it didn't happen in the middle of the pond.
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#32 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:25 am

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:20 pm
An itch at the back of my brain also hopes to God it wasn't deliberate sabotage.
Wasn't sand in the rudder flat a favourite? Dockyard Mateys didn't want to go to sea?

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#33 Post by Boac » Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:01 am

ex-A wrote:Vacancy, one grease monkey. Maybe even an engineering officer.
Or even a Captain? Ultimately responsible for his ship and the decision to set sail. Who knows what pressures he might have been under on this highly visible exercise to put to sea? I think back to the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre and the decision by the 'B ' word to require the operation of an unairworthy aircraft (possibly?) resulting in the (unexplained) loss of all on board. Where does the buck stop?

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#34 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:58 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:01 am
ex-A wrote:Vacancy, one grease monkey. Maybe even an engineering officer.
Or even a Captain? Ultimately responsible for his ship and the decision to set sail. Who knows what pressures he might have been under on this highly visible exercise to put to sea? I think back to the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre and the decision by the 'B ' word to require the operation of an unairworthy aircraft (possibly?) resulting in the (unexplained) loss of all on board. Where does the buck stop?
If any standing orders, or anything else pertaining to the running of the Engineering Department, were clear and there were no other extenuating circumstances then there won't be an automatic court martial of the captain. It would certainly be realised that he or she could not be ubiquitous and that competent and qualified officers such as the MEO should be relied on to carry out their duties correctly and to run their departments in the same way. The captain could not be expected to supervise the conduct of affairs in a machinery space at the bottom of the ship.

That would not be the case if there was a suspected error of judgement, perhaps with the captain failing to stop the starboard engine despite having been informed of a problem, unless maybe the ship was in danger of a collision or running aground. There is an automatic assumption that because the captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of the ship and her people that he will face a court martial in every event, but that is certainly not the case. The buck doesn't have to stop anywhere unless there is clear evidence of incompetence, wrongful conduct or disobedience of orders, as accidents and unforeseen events can occur without it necessarily being someone's 'fault'.

My captain and officer of the watch were both court martialled in a minesweeper I served in, when we struck a charted rock off Hong Kong. The officer of the watch because he hadn't plotted a safe course on the chart or fixed the ship properly and the captain, who was in his cabin, because he hadn't checked the OOW's position and fixing before leaving the bridge. The OOW tried to pin all the blame on his captain, which went down very badly and ruined his career before it had really started. Both were reprimanded and had no further promotion. In that case the Board of Enquiry had realised that there was a suspected case of lack of supervision of a junior officer.

But if the captain sailed when there was clearly a problem with that shaft, which he chose to ignore and over ride the advice of his MEO, then that would be another matter. #-o

I thought the Kintyre accident 'verdict' was disgusting as it maligned the pilots for the incompetence of so many senior officers. Now there was a clear case for several senior courts martial!

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#35 Post by Boac » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:13 am

FD2 wrote:But if the captain sailed when there was clearly a problem with that shaft, which he chose to ignore and over ride the advice of his MEO, then that would be another matter.
Indeed, and I suspect there would have been 'pressure' to sail from their 'seaships' in view of the high-profile nature of the operation, and the reported 'technical' delay to departure (which was...?). The Captain would, of course, have had to set sail if so ordered but one would hope he had covered his six! (Apart from his 'stuffiing box' :)) )

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#36 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:42 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:01 am
ex-A wrote:I think back to the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre and the decision by the 'B ' word to require the operation of an unairworthy aircraft (possibly?) resulting in the (unexplained) loss of all on board. Where does the buck stop?
I didn't realise the B word was involved in the decision to fly.
I know Bastard Bill was held in low estime for signing off the report as he did.

For those that don't know, different Bs but both rose the Air Chief Marshal.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#37 Post by Rossian » Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:20 pm

I think it was mentioned further up, when QE was on her trials they discovered a crack on a shaft "bearing block" (I don't know the technical term) and spent a week or two in Invergordon being fixed.
It was all very closely filmed by the documentary crew who were on board at the time.
During that period a farmer on the Black Isle flew a drone "very close" if not right over the flight deck and then back home and I don't think anyone had a shotgun to take it out Only slightly embarrassing.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#38 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:58 pm

I remember that part of the documentary Rossian, but I think the ship was on acceptance trials at the time and not actually 'owned' by the M.O.D./R.N. Shooting drones down would have been against whatever laws 'Police Scotland' or the Procurator Fiscal cared to charge the shooter with breaking. Once it was handed over to the MOD then there would be armed guards posted, but maybe not so many of them in Invergordon!

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#39 Post by 4mastacker » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:15 pm

FD2 wrote:
But if the captain sailed when there was clearly a problem with that shaft, which he chose to ignore and over ride the advice of his MEO, then that would be another matter. #-o

There's a photo over on TOP taken as PoW sailed from Portsmouth on the 27th, the wake showing only the port shaft was working. Did the problem with the starboard shaft already exist at that point and it was a case of pressonitis?
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#40 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:20 pm

Thanks 4m - that puts a new perspective on it!

If they sailed with the starboard shaft just trailing but no lube then they may have engaged it when clear of the coast, leading to an already overheated gland heating up more and the shaft sustaining damage. If they had it locked until offshore then engaged it with no lube then same result a little later. Desperation on getting to the prestigious exercises in the States and taking a chance on it coming good, which led to big red faces. Who authorised that sailing and who knew what and what advice was given - watch the press, but I notice the furore of interest has died down in the papers - at whose request I wonder?

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