Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#101 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:31 am

G-CPTN wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:16 am
How much does the draught vary according to load? Plimsol etc?
It does and is also affected by factors like a ship's weight, trim, list, squat, extensions like retractable (and non-retractable) rudders, propellers and so on, barometric pressure, water temperature and water salinity amongst others. The useful results of the science being held in tables, almanacs etc.

Mark the jolly mariner gives a good exegesis on the whole subject of draught and bridge clearance etc. Much the same for aircraft carriers as it is for yachts, I guess.




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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#102 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:35 am

My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#103 Post by FD2 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:42 am

A quick intro:

https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-na ... oad-lines/

I never saw Hermes as low in the water as when she left for the Falklands. Not much blacking visible here.
Hermes leaving.jpg

Whereas Invincible the same day:

Invincible leaves Pompey.jpg

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#104 Post by FD2 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:45 am

Hermes in 1976

hms-hermes.jpeg
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#105 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:17 am

The story of Samuel Plimsoll.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Plimsoll
His efforts were directed especially against what were known as "coffin ships": unseaworthy and overloaded vessels, often heavily insured, in which unscrupulous owners risked the lives of their crews.

In 1867, Plimsoll was elected as the Liberal Member of Parliament for Derby, and endeavoured in vain to pass a bill dealing with the subject of a safe load line on ships. The main problem was the number of powerful ship-owning MPs in Parliament.

In 1872, he published a work entitled Our Seamen, which became well known throughout the country. Accordingly, on Plimsoll's motion in 1873, a Royal Commission was appointed, and in 1875 a government bill was introduced, which Plimsoll, though regarding it as inadequate, resolved to accept.

On 22 July, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, announced that the bill would be dropped. Plimsoll lost his self-control, applied the term "villains" to members of the House, and shook his fist in the Speaker's face.

Disraeli moved that he be reprimanded, but on the suggestion of Lord Hartington agreed to adjourn the matter for a week to allow Plimsoll time for thought.

Eventually Plimsoll made an apology. Many people, however, shared his view that the bill had been stifled by the pressure of the shipowners, and popular feeling forced the government to pass a bill which in the following year was amended into the Merchant Shipping Act.

This gave stringent powers of inspection to the Board of Trade, and the mark that indicates the safe limit to which a ship may be loaded became generally known as Plimsoll's mark or line.
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#106 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:40 am

In aircraft design, the term "waterline" refers to the vertical location of items on the aircraft. This is (normally) the Z axis of an X × Y × Z coordinate system, the other two axes being the fuselage station (X) and buttock line (Y)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterline
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#107 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:17 pm

FD2 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:33 am
And back again, as was always expected that the poxy things would have to do.

Why was that 'always expected', U.P?
Because Rosyth is the only currently operational graving dock in Britain which can handle ships the size of the Blaircraft carriers.

Babcock was given a huge contract to keep those drydocks open and functional for forty or fifty years or for ever how long the poxy things can be expected to last.

I don't know which port is planned for use when they are scrapped. It would a bit ignominious to have them run up that beach in Bangladesh and chopped to pieces by little men in sandals and dhotis.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#108 Post by FD2 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:43 pm

So there was never any intention of extending either of the dry docks down south to take them? Unlikely now anyway, as Government dosh seems to be in short supply.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#109 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:55 pm

I don't think there's much forward thought at all.

For example, if a socialist independent Jockistan were throw the Trident boats, and their stoopid replacements, out of Faslane, where in England could they be based?

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#110 Post by FD2 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:12 pm

Popular place for me would be a re-opened Chatham Dockyard but I can't imagine how large an outcry there would be from a very 'leafy' part of England let alone its proximity to London.

Obviously Barrow-in-Furness is the obvious choice but it would cost huge amounts of money and time to build new facilities and there's always the worry they might find endangered newts there. Oh and somewhere close and suitable to store the shiny whites and torpedoes.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#111 Post by jimtherev » Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:24 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:17 pm
FD2 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:33 am
And back again, as was always expected that the poxy things would have to do.

Why was that 'always expected', U.P?
Because Rosyth is the only currently operational graving dock in Britain which can handle ships the size of the Blaircraft carriers.

Babcock was given a huge contract to keep those drydocks open and functional for forty or fifty years or for ever how long the poxy things can be expected to last.

I don't know which port is planned for use when they are scrapped. It would a bit ignominious to have them run up that beach in Bangladesh and chopped to pieces by little men in sandals and dhotis.
Nah. We never have to worry about scrapping 'em. Just sell 'em to the next third-world-aspiring-to-be-a-first-world nation when they're so worn out that they are useless anyway.

No, I didn't mean next week, actually...

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#112 Post by FD2 » Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:21 pm

Late with the story, the Telegraph comes up with this. Yet again the kids who write the script insist on 'The' HMS Prince of Wales. It's alright for the USN because it makes sense to say 'The United States Ship Elmer Fudd' but no one would say 'The Her Majesty's Ship Pomp and Circumstance' if such ships existed. ;)))

There is never a clear distinction between which authority is responsible. The Government gives approval for a ship to be built, through the Ministry of Defence. The MOD Procurement Executive sort out which yards can build such a thing. The Design people, again civil servants, with a naval input, design the ship and when the contract is awarded to the best or only tender the yard is awarded the contract and sets to work building it. When it has had sea trials the Navy accepts it into service. Until then it belongs to the builders. Somewhere along this trail some outfit didn't check or notice potential shaft problems and that led to this embarrassing situation. IMO it should not have been accepted into service after sea trials and that was probably someone in dark blue.



HMS Prince of Wales departure hit by ‘elementary’ blunders


More humiliation for the Ministry of Defence as it is revealed the £3bn warship’s starboard and port side shafts are misaligned

By Danielle Sheridan, Defence Editor 4 February 2023 • 9:30pm


The HMS Prince of Wales has been delayed further after engineers discovered “elementary” mistakes in the warship’s shaft alignment, The Telegraph can reveal in a further embarrassment to the Ministry of Defence (MoD).

The revelation came as the department was being investigated about its procurement process by the Conservatives, in an attempt to get to the bottom of repeated failings.

The Telegraph understands that both the £3 billion warship’s starboard and port side shafts are misaligned, causing the shafts to be offset.

This can cause the shaft to vibrate beyond its design tolerance, wear the bearings and in extreme cases break a coupling on the shaft itself, as happened with HMS Prince of Wales’s starboard shaft last September.

The Royal Navy’s new aircraft carrier’s “landmark mission” to the United States was cancelled last year because of a propeller shaft problem.

Its subsequent departure to Rosyth, Scotland to undergo repairs was delayed after a “crack” was found in part of its machinery.
HMS Prince of Wales warship Royal Navy repairs break down
A Royal Navy spokesman said that HMS Prince of Wales will commence her operational programme in the autumn as planned Credit: Andrew Matthews/PA Wire

Tom Sharpe, a former Royal Navy officer and captain of HMS Endurance, told The Telegraph that getting shaft alignment right is a “well-established” part of any ship built within maritime engineering circles.

“It is an elementary mistake,” Mr Sharpe said. “While building a ship of this size or complexity, nothing is routine. I’m surprised that this misalignment wasn’t spotted during build or then at sea as it became worse.

“HMS Queen Elizabeth is fine, which suggests that HMS Prince of Wales was subject to less rigorous testing during build and then trials when at sea. This is not uncommon in second-of-class ships. But in this case, clearly unsatisfactory.”

Navy sources insisted that by performing repairs on the port side shafts, it was “prudent action to prevent another defect like we had on the other shaft”.

“When all the trials took place the shafts were within tolerance,” they said. “No issues were identified in the trial and in build.”

They added that while they are content nothing has gone wrong with the port side shaft, they believe it is in the same state the starboard shaft was in.

“So we are pre-emptively correcting it before it becomes an issue, as we know the starboard shaft ended up failing,” they said.
John Healey shadow defence secretary Labour Party HMS Prince of Wales
John Healey, the shadow defence secretary, urged the Tories to be ‘upfront about the time and cost of repairs’ Credit: Jeff Gilbert for The Telegraph

John Healey, the shadow defence secretary, said: “At a time when threats are rising and the number of navy ships are set to fall further, we need our fleet at sea, not stuck in dock for long-running repairs.”

Mr Healey added that as a Nato flagship, “ministers cannot allow ongoing problems to undermine the ability of our Armed Forces to lead important joint exercises”.

He said: “The Conservatives must be upfront about the time and cost of repairs, and ensure the UK can meet its commitments in full to Nato and our allies.”

Earlier this week, the MoD had to explain how a nuclear engineer working on HMS Vanguard had glued broken bolts back together in what was described as an “unforgivable” error.

The inquiry into defence procurement, which is being led by Mark Francois, the backbench Tory MP, will examine the MoD’s failures at spending hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money properly going back at least two decades.

Mr Francois, a former Armed Forces minister, said: “The war in Ukraine is a total game changer, which means that we must increase our defence spending, as many of our Nato allies have already done.

“However, it’s not just about spending more money. It’s about getting a far better effect for the money that we spend.”
Ajax tank controversy Ministry of Defence Armed Forces
The woes with HMS Prince of Wales followed the controversy over the £5.5bn Ajax tank programme Credit: Richard P Walton

Recent procurement controversies within the MoD include the beleaguered £5.5 billion Ajax programme, which the Commons public accounts committee described as being “flawed from the outset. It said that the department had “once again made fundamental mistakes” in planning and managing a major equipment programme.

Meanwhile, a report last year by the Infrastructure and Projects Authority, which evaluates the Government’s major spending plans, found that out of 52 projects under way at the MoD, worth £194.7 billion, only three were given a green rating which suggested “successful delivery appears highly likely”.

A Royal Navy spokesman said: “After a thorough examination, the Royal Navy is completing pre-emptive work on the port shaft to prevent a similar defect occurring. We are working closely with industry to sequence this with a long-scheduled upgrade and enhancement period.

“HMS Prince of Wales will commence her operational programme, as planned, in autumn 2023. This will include flying training and trials.”

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#113 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:09 pm

I've just noticed the bit about bridge clearances.
I had this problem in Norway on one of HM yachts, wot I was First-Mating. The permanent skipper informed me that the Norwegian outer island bridges were all 22m clearance, and our mast height was "about 22m".

What I did was call for volunteers (there were several), and winch one of them up to the top of the mast, and approach the bridge in the centre just ghosting along under sail. If they bang their head, you engage the engine (which you have wisely already got running in neutral first) very rapidly into reverse gear.

She did not bang her head.
For bonus points, I had had the volunteer take a boat hook and a piece of insulating tape up with her. Since she was an RAF White-Water Canoeist, she was a dab hand at jabbing the hard thing and noting the extension of the pole when doing so. We thus were able to back-calculate the actual height of the mast above water level.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#114 Post by 4mastacker » Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:04 am

HMS PoW's prop shaft alignment team the pre-installation briefing.
Screenshot 2023-02-05 at 10.51.27.png
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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#115 Post by Boac » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:08 am

Would it not be reasonable to assume that in the sea trials, which presumably run the rubber bands flat out, that some sort of unusual vibration/noise/temperature reading would have been noticed with two prop shafts reportedly 'misaligned'?

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#116 Post by FD2 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:19 am

Yes Boac - couldn't have summed it up better myself.

#112 IMO it should not have been accepted into service after sea trials and that was probably someone in dark blue. ;)))

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#117 Post by Boac » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:26 am

Of course - "Lessons will, no doubt, be ?learnt?"

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#118 Post by FD2 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:36 am

I doubt it. More likely the report will be passed up the food chain and then kicked into the long grass. As has been stated by some who should know, the second and further builds of a particular class of ship do not seem to get the same close examination for faults which have already been rectified in the first of the class. This might account for Ark Royal working reasonably well and Prince of Wales not. I wonder if that particular lesson has been learnt.

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#119 Post by Boac » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:46 am

I had not heard that the QE had shaft faults. What work was done to rectify?

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Re: Royal Navy Aircraft carrier breaks down again.

#120 Post by Boac » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:50 am

A quick Gargle produces https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-que ... sue-trials. Do you know if this was 'misalignment' or another fault?

UPDATE: Yes it was!
"Multiple sources, some on board the vessel, have told the UK Defence Journal that an issue has been identified with the prop shaft, specifically that the part of the frame/bracket holding the prop shaft in place is 12mm out of alignment, causing the prop to be slightly at an angle leading to ‘cavitation, excess noise and drag’."

What a shambles. A few 'rears' need booting. (out?) Presumably they need a few more 12mm shims for the PoW......

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