Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

Message
Author
Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#21 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:23 am

UP you don't have to say a word
No, but it would be interesting if he did share his background in military aviation, as with all his other stories.

User avatar
tango15
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2420
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:43 pm
Location: East Midlands
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#22 Post by tango15 » Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:44 am

Does anyone else think that the rather rapid summoning of The Rt Hon Ben Wallace MP Secretary of State for Defence, to Washington is connected to this? The media seem to think it's to do with possible Russian nuke activity. Well, that may be on the table, but I suspect that the cousins are apoplectic after learning that ex-RAF pilots are helping themselves to Chinese takeaways. Normally it would be a summoning of the Ambo for a dressing down, but I reckon they think it's far beyond that, so I doubt whether Mr Wallace will be offered any Maxwell House during his meetings. Expect some fast-track legislation in the House next week...

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#23 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:09 pm

Could well be, although with the disarray of the UK government at present the US may have been worried also by the 'talk' (leak?) of a possible cut in defence spending. It could also presage a change in 'policy' following the Russian terrorist attacks on Ukraine and the need to seriously bolster Ukrainian Air Defences or...................??

User avatar
tango15
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2420
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:43 pm
Location: East Midlands
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#24 Post by tango15 » Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:26 pm

The scene is the Pentagon - were are in 2022 and diversity is the order of the day:

El Gran Jefe - Sr Hernandez: 'Say Mahatma, "what the hell is going on in little ole England?
El Gran Jefe -1: Mahatma Sanjeep: "Why, sir?"
EGJ: "Well I just got a report that some guys from their Royal Air Force are training the Chinese."
EGJ-1: "That's very bad, if true, sir."
EGJ: "Yeah, goddam Brits. Their spies are all faggots, they vote to leave the sanctity of the EU, and nowadays they change government more often than Italy."
EGJ-1 "What would you like me to do, sir?"
EGJ: "Get their goddam defense minister over here on Concorde, right now."
EGJ-1 "Concorde doesn't fly any more, sir. They're all in museums."
EGJ: "The whole goddam country is a working museum - do you know they got stuff there dating back to 1100? Anyway, what's the name of this week's defense minister?"
EGJ-1 "Errr, Wallace, sir."
EGJ: "Ah like in the Wallace and Gromit films - I love that stuff. Only decent thing the Brits ever did. By the way, who's the Prime Minister this week?"
EGJ-1: "It's a Ms Truss, sir."
EGJ: "Truss as in medical dressing you mean?"
EGJ-1 "Yes, sir."
EGJ: "Goddam it, the whole government sounds like the Muppet Show."
EGJ-1: "Apparently Mr Biden thinks so as well sir."

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#25 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:25 pm

Boac wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:03 pm
Out of interest, Plum, where in the RAF sequence did you bang out?
Leave out the ad hominem stuff, puhleese!

I know you've got your nasty personal agendum, but please just leave it out

There's an interesting topic afoot.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#26 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:29 pm

It can just be a secret, then.

k3k3
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1492
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:44 pm
Location: In the Transit Lounge

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#27 Post by k3k3 » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:34 pm

Not a secret, just private.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#28 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:41 pm

k3k3 wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:34 pm
Not a secret, just private.
Also: off-topic.

Just ad hominem. That's all

A post which did not attempt to address the interesting topic.

Just nasty. That's all.

Move on.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#29 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 19, 2022 5:11 pm

Not 'nasty' at all, just wanting to know from you at which stage of your 'pilot training' in the RAF of which you have posted you got the idea

"Isn't the basic plan to get behind the bugger and shoot him in the arse. Isn't that pretty much universal?"

without having to spend a while searching, but I have now searched and found your RAF history and know when you said you quit. Case closed. Move on.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#30 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Oct 19, 2022 5:52 pm

Ad hominem.

Recognised, by both parties.

Just nasty. Thats all.

Ok. It's a bit creepy too.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#31 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:07 pm

Let's let it go here, please.

As here (mostly anyway) there's an interesting topic here to discuss.

Let's crack on without the nastiness of the one who does that stuff.

Should pilots be allowed go abroad? For money?

Should silkworm weavers be allowed to go abroad from thence?

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17210
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#32 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:16 pm

Who is hanging on? Do you understand 'move on' or not? 3 posts since 17:52!! MOVE ON.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#33 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:32 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:16 pm
Who is hanging on? Do you understand 'move on' or not? 3 posts since 17:52!! MOVE ON.
Ooopps!


So sorry to move so slowly. Sorreee, m'Lud.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#34 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:59 pm

Silk works like this:

Y''see there are these wurrms; and there's they've got wot leaves and stuff wot they beget; and they want to build roads and railways and things to sell stuff that they've somehow learn't how to make cheaply enough to sell beyond a rice paddy.

Bastards!

Just bastards. Therefore: Enemy.

Their's tea? Feeble, unless hot and in very small cups. Not much sugar; not much milk. Just NATO standard NAAFi, please. We're at war y'know.

TheGreenAnger
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:40 pm
Location: Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#35 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:52 am

tango15 wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 12:26 pm
The scene is the Pentagon - were are in 2022 and diversity is the order of the day:

El Gran Jefe - Sr Hernandez: 'Say Mahatma, "what the hell is going on in little ole England?
El Gran Jefe -1: Mahatma Sanjeep: "Why, sir?"
EGJ: "Well I just got a report that some guys from their Royal Air Force are training the Chinese."
EGJ-1: "That's very bad, if true, sir."
EGJ: "Yeah, goddam Brits. Their spies are all faggots, they vote to leave the sanctity of the EU, and nowadays they change government more often than Italy."
EGJ-1 "What would you like me to do, sir?"
EGJ: "Get their goddam defense minister over here on Concorde, right now."
EGJ-1 "Concorde doesn't fly any more, sir. They're all in museums."
EGJ: "The whole goddam country is a working museum - do you know they got stuff there dating back to 1100? Anyway, what's the name of this week's defense minister?"
EGJ-1 "Errr, Wallace, sir."
EGJ: "Ah like in the Wallace and Gromit films - I love that stuff. Only decent thing the Brits ever did. By the way, who's the Prime Minister this week?"
EGJ-1: "It's a Ms Truss, sir."
EGJ: "Truss as in medical dressing you mean?"
EGJ-1 "Yes, sir."
EGJ: "Goddam it, the whole government sounds like the Muppet Show."
EGJ-1: "Apparently Mr Biden thinks so as well sir."
Pretty accurate (and amusing) vignette methinks! ;)))

However, who can blame the US for being somewhat dubious about perfidious Albion what with UK based spies like Fuchs, helping the USSR to develop their atom bomb, through to the British government allowing Rolls Royce to sell Nene engines to the commies etc. over the years.

On a more serious note, there is more to the timing of this brouhaha than meets the eye. The SA company at the centre of this "storm" noted the following.
But exactly why the UK is now on the warpath is something of a mystery – because Chinese pilots have been training in South Africa since 2002, and the UK has always known exactly what was going on, says the company involved.

The UK's armed forces minister James Heappey, with the firm support of UK Prime Minister Liz Truss, this week said they would change the law to prevent pilots trained by the Royal Air Force (RAF) from passing intelligence to China.

That came after a "threat alert" on the dangers posed by RAF pilots recruited by the Test Flying Academy of South Africa (TFASA).

One Conservative MP has called for such pilots to be stripped of their British citizenship.

The UK theory appears to be that training by UK pilots, thought to number about 30, involves handing over secrets about everything from British tactics to the handling characteristics of its planes.

But intelligence is never part of the package, TFASA group executive chair and president Jean Rossouw told Business Insider South Africa on Wednesday.

"I just want to repeat what the [United Kingdom's ministry of defence or MoD] said by way of the British press in every article: no laws were broken, no secrets have been leaked, because no matter what training we do, there are very strong rules around handing over information and clear red lines, the smallest infraction means immediate dismissal."

Rossouw said the company is also careful not to deal with client projects that could include classified information.

"The British MoD has known for years what we do, and we know they know because they have been talking to some of the British pilots involved throughout. Why have they done nothing until now?"

A TFSA predecessor company first trained civilian helicopter pilots for the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) in 2002.

TFASA itself was formed with China in mind, and has never made a secret of that, publicly-available historical documents show. In fact, it was formed "with the full support of the South African government in order to pursue friendship and cooperation with China", according to one company sales pitch, and has long-standing formal partnerships and joint ventures with AVIC in both South Africa and China.

The company offers "military operational flight training", and boasts of pilots with experience flying Western planes such as the Eurofighter and Gripen.

Its sales pitches have also included "training to NATO training standards".

But Rossouw said TFASA has never recruited pilots directly from the UK military, and that every appointment had been from a pool of pilots working in the Middle East. They are all retired pilots already working for BAE Systems as civil contractors, he said.

The British government has suggested it would apply pressure, including via allies, to stop the support of Chinese pilot training. Its foreign office did not immediately respond to questions, including whether it had already sought to engage the government of South Africa on the issue.

Relations between the UK and China have soured considerably thanks to China's tacit support of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, perhaps most notably through the large quantities of Russian oil bought by China while Nato countries attempt to economically isolate Russia.

Meanwhile, UK Prime Minister Liz Truss is under enormous domestic pressure, with one UK tabloid running a dedicated live YouTube channel with the premise that her remaining term in office may be shorter than the shelf life of a lettuce.
https://www.businessinsider.co.za/tfasa ... on-2022-10
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#36 Post by FD2 » Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:47 am

Interesting stuff TGA.

If the CIA and SIS have only just found out about the China training stuff then they both need a bit of gingering up. Suspect there's more afoot than that. Maybe intelligence suggests even more dangerous stuff than so far being planned by the bastard Putin and his useful fools.

What about drones flying over Norwegian oil and gas installations? Sabotage them and there will be even more chilly houses this winter than we fear.

TheGreenAnger
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:40 pm
Location: Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#37 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:00 am

FD2 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:47 am
Interesting stuff TGA.

If the CIA and SIS have only just found out about the China training stuff then they both need a bit of gingering up. Suspect there's more afoot than that. Maybe intelligence suggests even more dangerous stuff than so far being planned by the bastard Putin and his useful fools.

What about drones flying over Norwegian oil and gas installations? Sabotage them and there will be even more chilly houses this winter than we fear.
+1

I think that the Putin situation is germane, as you say FD2.
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#38 Post by FD2 » Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:32 pm

As the UK is not at war with China, these people are not committing any offence unless they give away any NATO secrets - anything Confidential or above perhaps.

I guess they will all have signed the Official Secrets Act form but unless the UK authorities can prove any offence - catching them 'in the act' might be difficult to say the least - then they will be free to carry on with their lives, a good deal richer but maybe not so popular with their old mates.

Better hide that dosh well chaps as I'm sure HMRC will get hold of your names!

TheGreenAnger
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:40 pm
Location: Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#39 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:31 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 5:18 am
Language problems?


Kill the Nazis, kill the Russians... :-bd
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

TheGreenAnger
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:40 pm
Location: Unfashionable end of the Western Spiral

Re: Ex-military pilots lured to China…..

#40 Post by TheGreenAnger » Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:19 pm

FD2 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:32 pm
Better hide that dosh well chaps as I'm sure HMRC will get hold of your names!

Even more so now that our incompetent government has spaffed over £20 billion (actually more like 40) in the last 2 weeks.

Even my ex-wife couldn't have done that.

FFS

=))
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

Post Reply