Forgotten pilots or flights...

Message
Author
User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#181 Post by FD2 » Mon May 17, 2021 7:28 pm

It's a great book and quite accurately reflects some of the attitudes of the early 1960s between short and long service officers, ship's and squadron officers likewise, as well as the great difficulties of getting a carrier and several thousand men worked up into a front line fighting unit. Thankfully so much of that stuff is history now.

Winton died in 2001 but produced an amazing volume of work after having served in the Korean War and Suez - his first book 'We Joined The Navy' was written while he was still serving and introduced the 'Artful Bodger' character. Now I've talked myself into re-reading it!

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#182 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue May 18, 2021 12:58 pm

FD2 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 6:07 am
It looks as though Harry Hayes was General List - in a minority of aircrew during the War. Maybe he didn't want to advertise the fact - see the marvellous book 'HMS Leviathan' by John Winton. I experienced the bias a couple of times myself from former fish-head friends. Maybe he had just bought a new uniform and needed to get busy with needle and thread!
I have never read HMS Leviathan (but I am tempted to read it now) but in reading Charles Lamb's 'War in a Stringbag' (hat tip to C16) and Lamb's reference to the loss of HMS Glorious, I was reminded that I had read 'Carrier Glorious' by John Winton, telling as it did about the tension between Glorious' Captain, ex-submariner Guy D'Oyly-Hughes, and the Commander Flying, J.B Heath and Lieutenant Commander Evelyn Slesser on the ship. According to Winton, despite having learned to fly it was clear that D'Oyly-Hughes was not apt to listen to his pilot officers, and such was the breakdown as result of this, that he had sought to Court Martial the two aforementioned officers for refusing to obey orders (if I remember correctly, no doubt somebody will correct me). As a result of the pending court martial, these men were left at Scapa awaiting trial and this coupled with D'Oyly-Hughes's rush to get back to Scapa (presumably to wreak his wrath on the two officers) and his failure to keep aircraft on air patrol, partially resulted in the loss of an isolated Glorious, and her escorts HMS Arcasta and HMS Ardent with a huge loss of men, due to the the attacks by the Scharnhorst et al. If I remember correctly D'Oyly-Hughes went down with his ship. It is many years since I read Winton's book, so forgive me if I have mangled the story. I am apt to reread 'Carrier Glorious'.

https://www.historytoday.com/hms-glorio ... ontroversy

Whatever the truth of it all, D'Oyly-Hughes was an interesting character!

https://www.hmsglorious.com/
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#183 Post by ian16th » Tue May 18, 2021 2:02 pm

Reading this, I've discovered that a former boss of mine was one of the few survivors.

Sir Kenneth Cross.
Cynicism improves with age

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#184 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue May 18, 2021 2:15 pm

ian16th wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 2:02 pm
Reading this, I've discovered that a former boss of mine was one of the few survivors.

Sir Kenneth Cross.
A very brave and fortunate man, to have survived!

The story in an extraordinary one whatever the truth of it! The aircraft available to HMS Glorious were mismanaged and the result was a British naval disaster!

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... rier-51307
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#185 Post by FD2 » Tue May 18, 2021 8:15 pm

D'Oyly-Hughes was obsessed with the desire to court martial his Commander (Air) and Lt Cdr (Flying) ('Wings' deputy). There was an interesting documentary about the whole tragic episode a few years ago. A memorial to all the 1500 men lost can be found in a church near Ullswater http://www.glarac.co.uk/node/2202

I think this is the documentary I was thinking of

and there are several others.

I think it does illustrate the possible problems of having non-aviators in command of carriers, whose experience and training did not encompass the use and dangers of air power. Also his lack of appreciation of the dangers of sailing for Scapa Flow with only a couple of small destroyers as escorts. This was a tragic example of one man's personality over-riding responsible decision making. Friction does still occur I'm sure but gets resolved by common sense of those involved and I can clearly remember an occasion in my time where this was so.

There was bound to be friction at times but I hope that nowadays they all sing from the same hymn sheets that they've had drummed into them in command and staff courses. I hope the 'I'm right at any cost' attitude has been weeded out as well in promotion assessments. In a much stiffer atmosphere back then and in wartime it was still possible for the ability to fight the ship to have been eroded by these personal animosities.

What I found difficult to understand is how D'Oyly-Hughes completely lacked the ability to see what his obsession was leading to and no one could stop him, but that's the way command at sea is and should be - it's not an discussion group after all. He had the ability to take the course he did and took it, ignoring the possible consequences. According to his daughters (in the documentary) he was a lovely chap at home apparently - as most of us are - so he couldn't possibly have been solely responsible for this tragedy.

ian16th - that wasn't HMS Ulysses by Alistair MacLean your were remembering was it? A much sadder ending.

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#186 Post by FD2 » Tue May 18, 2021 8:19 pm

A similar change occurred in the air when the old service method of dealing with emergencies that we'd been taught as power of command - barking orders at the co-pilot - was replaced by CRM. The 'cause' of CRM was certainly helped by accidents like the Sioux City DC10 crash.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#187 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 19, 2021 5:49 am

FD2 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:15 pm

I think it does illustrate the possible problems of having non-aviators in command of carriers, whose experience and training did not encompass the use and dangers of air power.
Reverting back to Lamb's book and Robin Kilroy, it seems that the redoubtable Flight Commander Kilroy, went out of his way to quash the foolish plans of some of the hapless higher up's in the Navy relating to foolish missions for his squadron, which might have meant needless casualties, or in one case, the almost certain annihilation of the squadron. In the latter case, which involved a directive to continue their very dangerous night mine laying drops in the teeth of enemy fire in German held harbours and canals in Germany and Norway, but this time in daylight, with the navigators in the Stringbag being replaced by a huge long range fuel tank, as they were flying from land bases in Britain, and the German defences only too happy to pick off the slow Swordfish at will, in the heavily defended areas they had hitherto being penetrating at night, where total darkness, had afforded the pilots and radio operators/observers some modicum of safety. Kilroy didn't disobey the order, he merely briefed his men to take off and then formate on him to the target, with the express orders, that they return to base if they lost sight of him. Once they where circling above the airfield, he took off in the early morning gloom and easily gave them all the slip, and set off alone to the most distant target, as the rest of the squadron, as per orders, landed and, eventually, a radio message was sent for him to return which he reluctantly did. Nothing was done as it was clear that Kilroy would have attempted the mission with his observer but had effectively saved some, or even all of his men from almost certain death.

Not all of the admiralty were senescent fossils, basking in their certitude and immovable belief in outmoded tactics from a bygone era. People like Reginald Drax, himself an elderly man by the time the Second World war started, were apt to see that tactics needed to be changed to best utilise aircraft in the navy.

Striking a Balance between Dissent and Discipline: Admiral Sir Reginald Drax
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#188 Post by FD2 » Wed May 19, 2021 6:09 am

There always seems to be someone who comes up with a brilliant idea like that. They presumably wouldn't be flying the missions. :-h

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#189 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 19, 2021 6:45 am

FD2 wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 6:09 am
There always seems to be someone who comes up with a brilliant idea like that. They presumably wouldn't be flying the missions. :-h
Yes, plus ca change, in all military organisations, worldwide! ;)))

Thank you for posting that very good video about the loss of HMS glorious and her escorts... tragic really!
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#190 Post by FD2 » Fri May 21, 2021 10:12 pm

Re: Post number 178 - I have put myself in the 'Backward Aircraft Recognition Class' for mis-identifying the aircraft on Formidable's deck as Barracudas. Apologies, they are Fireflies but no idea what mark. To make up for the cock up here is another, courtesy of Navy Wings, of Fireflies of 1770 Squadron aircraft back on Indefatigable's deck after a Sumatra raid.

Fireflies 1770 Squadron HMS Indefatigable.jpeg
Fireflies 1770 Squadron HMS Indefatigable.jpeg (30.53 KiB) Viewed 606 times

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#191 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon May 24, 2021 7:26 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 12:58 pm

I have never read HMS Leviathan (but I am tempted to read it now) but in reading Charles Lamb's 'War in a Stringbag' (hat tip to C16) and Lamb's reference to the loss of HMS Glorious, I was reminded that I had read 'Carrier Glorious' by John Winton,
Decided to reread Winton's 'Carrier Glorious' only to notice what I believe is an egregious factual mistake on Page 9 in which he states...

"Argus, the world's first flush flight deck 567 feet long from stem to stern was converted from the ex-Italian liner Conte Rossi; from Argus' deck in October 1918 , in the Firth of Forth. Commander Bell Davies, VC. DSO, flying a Sopwith Strutter made the first historic flight deck take offs and landings".

All of which would have been news to South African born Edwin Harris Dunning (if he had been alive) who actually made the first take off and landing the year before!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Harris_Dunning
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#192 Post by FD2 » Mon May 24, 2021 7:57 pm

Yes GG - I always thought Dunning made the first take off and landing before later going over the side. Definitely worth checking.

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#193 Post by FD2 » Mon May 24, 2021 8:10 pm

GG I read that on page 9. I suspect he meant from a flush full length deck rather than the deck forward of the bridge that Dunning uses. Winton is confusing though because if Dunning landed on then he must have flown off again - I couldn't see them winching the aircraft ashore for the next attempt!


Dunning_killed_on_second_carrier_landing_IWM_Q_80597.jpg

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#194 Post by FD2 » Mon May 24, 2021 9:08 pm

Dunning 1.png
First landing.
Dunning 1.png (155.42 KiB) Viewed 571 times

Dunning 2.jpg
Congratulations from all.

Dunning 4.png
Wreckage recovered, Dunning had drowned.
Dunning 4.png (170.86 KiB) Viewed 571 times

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#195 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue May 25, 2021 1:34 am

As you say FD2, Winton is not clear on this matter and was making a reference to take off and landing on a flush deck carrier. He lets himself down by the use of vague terminology that seems to write Dunning out of history. Dunning almost certainly took off from a ship as well, using a ramp as this article implies, although whether he took off and landed back on the same ship is a moot point... I suspect not!

Nonetheless Winton writes very well, with a wry sense of the absurd, and with verve and humour, particularly when it comes to describing some of the extraordinary characters involved. e.g. the dour Scot Dashwood Fowler Moir and the obviously mentally troubled Guy D'Oyly-Hughes.

EdwinDunning1.JPG
Twenty-five year old South African pilot, Commander Edwin Dunning, had calculated that if an aircraft carrier sailed into the wind this would reduce the speed of an approaching aeroplane, making it possible to land on the ship. With no arrester wires, the aeroplane would need grappling ropes fitted to the wing struts to allow the ground crew to catch and stop the aeroplane. The pilot would also have to fly past the ship’s funnels before landing on the flying-off deck.

Commander Dunning took off in his Sopwith Pup from Smoogro, Orphir, on 2nd August 1917 and flew towards HMS Furious. He skilfully manoeuvred his aeroplane past the ship’s funnels and landed safely on the flying-off deck, making aviation history. Sadly his triumph was short lived as he was killed just five days later, 7th August, attempting another landing on HMS Furious. An aviation committee later decided on flush-decked carriers, which opened a new chapter of naval history.
https://orkneymuseum.wordpress.com/2020 ... %20history.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#196 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 26, 2021 4:26 pm

On Charles Lamb's book again, it is extraordinary that he was indirectly the cause of that foul French traitor "General" Huntziger's death!

One can only salute Charles Lamb posthumously. He had an extraordinary war, fought with great courage and at a huge personal cost to his health.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#197 Post by FD2 » Wed May 26, 2021 11:08 pm

After two good recommendations I have ordered a copy of Charles Lamb's book - long overdue I think. I look forward to reading it in a few weeks time when the post allows.

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#198 Post by FD2 » Thu May 27, 2021 10:41 am

From Navy Wings.

Some detail about a skirmish concerning Lt Cdr Eugene Esmonde V.C. and Bismarck, later to lead the ill fated Channel Dash attack.


HMS Victorious Attack


80 years ago, on 24 May 1941 the first striking wave of nine Swordfish torpedo bombers took off from HMS Victorious to attack the Bismarck. It was already getting dark as Lieutenant Commander Eugene Esmonde, Commanding Officer 825 Naval Air Squadron led the formation of Swordfish biplanes to the unsuspecting Bismarck 120 miles away. As they were swallowed up in the rain squall, everyone in the carrier wondered if they would ever see them again.

In 1941 there were two different schools of thought about ‘how’ naval aviation should be used. Bismarck was the last major example of the ‘old’ doctrine – naval aircraft would ‘find’ and ‘wound’ an enemy, slowing it down for the heavy surface units to close in for the ‘kill’. This was largely the thinking that day, although many senior officers at the time were increasingly realising that battleships were dead, and carriers would become the primary strike weapon in-their-own-right. But this ‘new’ doctrine did not become viable until a few years later when new more capable aircraft came into service.

The Royal Navy had lost many from its small pool of naval aviators in the losses of HMS Courageous in 1939 and HMS Glorious in 1940 and most of the aircrew involved in the search for the Bismarck were raw. They had, however, been well trained at RNAS Crail in co-ordinated night torpedo attacks.

The three flights of aircraft reached Bismarck just before midnight and delivered a courageous attack in appalling weather, amid a hail of anti-aircraft fire.

Esmonde’s flight came in low on the port beam and skimming the wave tops dropped their torpedoes at close range. The second flight led by Lt ‘Percy’ Gick attacked on the port bow. Gick was not satisfied with his run in, turned and came in again against an inferno of fire, this time scoring a torpedo hit amidships. While Esmonde and Gick were attacking from the port side, the third flight made their attack on the starboard side.

Lt ‘Percy’ Gick later to become a Rear Admiral, played a key part in the HMS Victorious attack. Flying in from an unexpected quarter at low level, he was the only pilot to score a hit. While his torpedo did not penetrate Bismarck’s heavily armoured belt, the explosion damaged the ships oil tanks.

Petty Officer Les Sayer DCM MBE, Telegraphist Air Gunner got out of his aircraft half frozen after the attack: a shell splash from one of Bismarck’s 15-inch guns had knocked the fabric flooring of the Swordfish from under him, so that he was suspended above the sea. Victorious was still 100 miles away but in the finest spirit of the Fleet Air Arm he described the bitterly cold and wet return flight as simply “a bit draughty in the back!”

Petty Officer Les Sayer, Lt Gick’s Telegraphist Air Gunner described the attack.

“We went in. My pilot was Lt Percy Gick, who was the No 1 Torpedo Attack Instructor in the Fleet Air Arm. If anyone, was going to score a hit, it would surely be he. They started throwing everything at us, but we got away with it because the German rangefinders were not calibrated for enemy aircraft approach speeds below 100 knots. We were also flying so low that the German guns could not achieve the necessary depression. At first, I thought our torpedo had got hung up, but as if in answer, back came this Dartmouth voice: “I am not lined up properly. I am going in again.” We therefore wheeled away to a distance, of about fifteen miles.

The Germans must have thought that the attack was over, and that the Swordfish had all departed. They did not see us; they did not know we were there. So, we dropped our ‘fish’ from about 500 yards and at a height of 20 feet. We turned away and by the time the gun crews had woken up we were twenty miles away. They then opened-up with their 15-inch main armament. They did not hit us, but we could not avoid the massive waterspouts thrown up by the shell splashes and when we hit one of them all the fabric at the bottom of the aircraft was torn away. We had a very cold trip back! As we approached HMS Victorious, she had put on her searchlight and amazingly we all got back on board – three of the pilots had never carried out a deck landing at night before. We were probably the least prepared torpedo squadron to do the job required of us, but our No 1 aircraft did hit the Bismarck amidships.”

It was getting on for 2am before the Swordfish returned to HMS Victorious in a squall which reduced visibility to zero. Miraculously not one of the Swordfish was shot down or even badly-damaged. Given that the attack had taken place at night, at extreme range and in appalling weather and sea conditions, it was remarkable that any torpedoes had hit at all. Although the attack did not cause any direct damage, the explosion caused by Percy Gick’s hit, together with the violent zigzagging evasive action taken by the ship to avoid the torpedoes, ripped apart the repairs made in the ship’s oil tanks earlier in the day, crucially slowing her down and delaying her escape towards safety.




HMS Victorious Attack.png
From left to right: Lieutenant Percy Gick, RN, awarded DSC; Lieutenant Commander Eugene Esmonde, RN, awarded DSO; Sub Lieutenant V K Norfolk, RN, awarded DSC; Petty Officer Telegraphist Air Gunner Les Sayer awarded DSM; Leading Airman Telegraphist Air Gunner A L Johnson, awarded DSM.[/i][/b]

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#199 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu May 27, 2021 11:26 am

Brave men all of them, as even the Germans admitted later after the suicidal attack in the Channel that saw the loss of Esmonde and so many others.

I shall shut up about Charles Lamb as FD2 is about to read his most affecting autobiography.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
FD2
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5110
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Forgotten pilots or flights...

#200 Post by FD2 » Thu May 27, 2021 7:32 pm


Post Reply