School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

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CharlieOneSix
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School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#1 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:45 pm

A good news story amongst the daily dross....

School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....
The helicopter pilots' mantra: If it hasn't gone wrong then it's just about to...
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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#2 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:10 pm

As a physics teacher who did a lot of projects, and was highly successful at it, I have to say this is a spectacular waste of money. That amount is a good physics department's budget for 25 years. It's the discretionary bit for 100 years. Unwrapping a kit and bolting it together has about 10% of the learning value of building anything from scratch. To me it's indicative of how inefficient the nanny state approach to education has become.

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#3 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:33 pm

.....but it didn't come out of a physics department budget.
Funding came from a variety of sources, including rural development grants, corporate sponsorship and crowdfunding.
At least this project inspired the pupils to take part in it after school hours as well as during school hours as part of the science and technology curriculum. I didn't expect a project which has gained such interest amongst those pupils to be knocked down here as a worthless exercise in unwrapping and bolting together a kit. Oh well, what one person sees as a good news story another sees as a waste of space.
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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#4 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:02 pm

Well I give the project :-bd just for doing something that obviously got a lot of young people interested in something that does not involve a smartphone or facebook. :YMAPPLAUSE:
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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#5 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:03 pm

It's not worthless, given the current state of affairs. It's good for those few kids, but not even for them is it as good as it could be. It's a step stool for a subject area at the bottom of a mineshaft.
The first two sources of funds could also be obtained for far more cost effective and equally exciting projects (I had to force my kids to go to breaks/meals also).
The problems are that the admin pressures* and vastly over-restrictive Health and Safety rules**, coupled with the lack of STEM teachers who are actually qualified in subject***, mean that the majority of schools have neither the time nor the expertise to do this kind of thing, nevermind integrate it into the syllabus, which is the real trick.
There are 10,000 schools in the UK. One aeroplane every decade does not a STEM revival make. Whilst it benefits these kids, it's basically a PR exercise to cover up a failing system.

Currently in the UK, less than 50% of physics classes have a physics-qualified teacher taking them. There are large numbers of schools with none at all. Recruitment is at 60% of break-even*** (that's break-even for 50%, not the proper complement), and getting steadily worse. Maths and Chemistry are almost as bad, and DT has been largely stripped of any hands-on skills. The number of exam projects with moving components is near zero - it's basically flatpack furniture copies. Furthermore, nothing Government has done in 20 years has made any difference to the decline, and they are proposing nothing different than doing more of it.

*https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -education
**Even in the schools with good STEM staff, the vast majority of senior management run a mile from anything that even smells of court case.
***https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ent-report

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#6 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:23 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:03 pm
It's not worthless, given the current state of affairs. It's good for those few kids, but not even for them is it as good as it could be. It's a step stool for a subject area at the bottom of a mineshaft.
The first two sources of funds could also be obtained for far more cost effective and equally exciting projects (I had to force my kids to go to breaks/meals also).
The problems are that the admin pressures* and vastly over-restrictive Health and Safety rules**, coupled with the lack of STEM teachers who are actually qualified in subject***, mean that the majority of schools have neither the time nor the expertise to do this kind of thing, nevermind integrate it into the syllabus, which is the real trick.
There are 10,000 schools in the UK. One aeroplane every decade does not a STEM revival make. Whilst it benefits these kids, it's basically a PR exercise to cover up a failing system.

Currently in the UK, less than 50% of physics classes have a physics-qualified teacher taking them. There are large numbers of schools with none at all. Recruitment is at 60% of break-even*** (that's break-even for 50%, not the proper complement), and getting steadily worse. Maths and Chemistry are almost as bad, and DT has been largely stripped of any hands-on skills. The number of exam projects with moving components is near zero - it's basically flatpack furniture copies. Furthermore, nothing Government has done in 20 years has made any difference to the decline, and they are proposing nothing different than doing more of it.

*https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -education
**Even in the schools with good STEM staff, the vast majority of senior management run a mile from anything that even smells of court case.
***https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ent-report
I thoroughly enjoyed physics at school, albeit in racially divided South Africa, where the large black majority got +- 5% of the resources and therefore the worst of everything. I was privileged to go to a good private school in Cape Town and enjoy the benefits of well qualified, often over-qualified, teachers and the best of everything and, maybe suffused with guilt, we decided to share some of our resources with a local "coloured school" and became involved in a multi-disciplinary projects involving maths and science, that drew in black pupils from the townships as well. It was wonderful to see how this enthused us all (across all divides) and brought up the standard of all the pupils concerned. One of the coloured kids involved in the exercise went on later to win a scholarship to Oxford and is now a safety physicist working at the Koeberg nuclear power station. I had a beer with him in SA in the last couple of weeks and he still says that he started to dream after he saw what can be done after that one small, one might say patronising, sticking plaster like exercise back in the late 70's.

Sadly the education system in SA today is collapsing and the average black and or coloured (note coloured in SA implies mixed race or from Cape Malay background) kid is still, probably, as badly off as the folks we collaborated with back in the bad old days of apartheid.

Fox3, forgive me if I am being presumptious, but I perceive that you are embitttered by your experience as a teacher, predicated upon your desire, I am sure, to ensure improvement and standards across the board.

In SA I saw the frustrations and burnout involved in working in a flawed and failing education system, which is woefully obvious these days here in the UK and, still, in SA sadly. Nonetheless it is projects like this one noted by C16 that may very well inspire one of those kids to go onto greater things and in the midst of the gloom and mediocrity, that has to be worth it surely? WIthout hope, joy and enthusiasm what have we left?


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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#7 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:45 pm

No.
As I said, that's funding for a few that isn't going to helping a lot of kids, and furthermore is perpetuating the idea that things are great and this is one example of it. It's propaganda that is trying to hide a deeply failing system. What next, one class builds a space rocket for £620,000? It's the same with the teaching awards, and every other Government bauble. It is PR to cover up failure rather than fixing the problems, and the expenditure and emphasis on that PR actually makes the situation worse.
I realise that my comments are not what people want to hear, so I will shut up about it for quite a while after this post, but this kind of thing really is very bad for education. The problems are perfectly fixable, and on a lower budget than now, but it involves politicians admitting they've failed at a fundamental level, and a lot of apparatchiks being fired. But if this kind of stunt isn't attacked, they'll keep doing more of it rather than face the problems.

And you aren't being presumptuous; but I am not embittered, I'm quietly angry. I'm not just chipping in on this to express myself, but to make a cogent argument for rejecting this sort of thing.

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#8 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:10 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:45 pm
No.
As I said, that's funding for a few that isn't going to helping a lot of kids, and furthermore is perpetuating the idea that things are great and this is one example of it. It's propaganda that is trying to hide a deeply failing system. What next, one class builds a space rocket for £620,000? It's the same with the teaching awards, and every other Government bauble. It is PR to cover up failure rather than fixing the problems, and the expenditure and emphasis on that PR actually makes the situation worse.
I realise that my comments are not what people want to hear, so I will shut up about it for quite a while after this post, but this kind of thing really is very bad for education. The problems are perfectly fixable, and on a lower budget than now, but it involves politicians admitting they've failed at a fundamental level, and a lot of apparatchiks being fired. But if this kind of stunt isn't attacked, they'll keep doing more of it rather than face the problems.

And you aren't being presumptuous; but I am not embittered, I'm quietly angry. I'm not just chipping in on this to express myself, but to make a cogent argument for rejecting this sort of thing.
With respect to the highlighted text, you certainly shouldn't stop just because you think you are going against the grain. I know we all love a feel good story even if it is might be shrouding the hard cold reality.

Keep up what you believe to be the good fight if you have to!

Are you still teaching in Canada, even part time?

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#9 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:28 pm

We have the same problems over here, but the regulations are less so teachers have less admin than the UK. The inspection regime is either a lot lighter or non-existent.
However, I'm not teaching at Uni because non-tenured lecturers are treated like dirt with frequent major breaches of regulations by employers. My cousin resigned from a Uni Out West for the same reason, and the Ontario lecturers have recently been on a long strike. At school level, the regulations and systems are frequently changed to preserve the jobs of those already employed, which also makes conditions worse for part time and substitute staff. As a consequence, there is now a shortage of substitute staff, and appeals have been made in the press, but nobody in education is prepared to make the changes that are causing the problem. For example, here one has a significant application fee to get on the list, with no guaranteed work, one only gets job offers less than 24 hours beforehand after all qualified staff have had first dibs (and permanent staff do not have to be qualified in the subject, just as teachers. I know an artist who teaches Grade 8 physics), and one gets paid half what a permanent teacher does. In practice, after taxes and transport costs, one is working for less than minimum wage, which is why there's a shortage. School Principals who care about standards hate this as much as the potential substitutes do, and of the 5 I've spoken to, one has retired early and one gone to teach abroad, with the attitude of the Department of Education being their main reason.

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#10 Post by G-CPTN » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:54 pm

Whilst building (anything) from a kit is less-educating than scratch-building, a scratch-built aircraft is unlikely to qualify for approval to fly - unless, of course, it was a model aircraft.

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#11 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:05 pm

G-CPTN wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:54 pm
Whilst building (anything) from a kit is less-educating than scratch-building, a scratch-built aircraft is unlikely to qualify for approval to fly - unless, of course, it was a model aircraft.
Any LAA/BMAA members or examiners care to comment?

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplic ... ail&id=146

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#12 Post by G-CPTN » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:08 pm

Cacophonix wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:05 pm
G-CPTN wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:54 pm
Whilst building (anything) from a kit is less-educating than scratch-building, a scratch-built aircraft is unlikely to qualify for approval to fly - unless, of course, it was a model aircraft.
Any LAA members or examiners care to comment?

Caco
I was referring to a design/build by pupils - of course a professional or experienced aircraft builder could influence a design to be successful.

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#13 Post by Ex-Ascot » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:58 am

The state education here is appalling. Everyone's grades are published for all to see. Many don't make their equivalent to the sixth form. Apparently the state education in Zimbabwe is much better. Our project manager's wife lives in Zim with their kids because of better education and indeed health care. The safari camp manageress up river has her daughter living in Vic Falls with her mother to go to school there. She has gone there to have her baby. Most S.A.s here have their kids in boarding school in S.A.

Not sure what is wrong here. The pay maybe. We know a British physics and mathematics teacher who came here on some 'teach abroad' scheme, married a local and stayed. He always comments about what he could earn in industry in the UK.
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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#14 Post by Slasher » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:00 pm

I did well in Pure and Applied Mathematics and Physics at Matric level but not so good in Chemistry. The attractive Chem teacher had the biggest tits on the planet - and I'd unconsciously kept doodling her boobs in class during important note-taking. Many bets were taken as to her nipple size and whether she had large areolas. The wagers were never settled as only heated debates and theories abounded.

I received a 67% in the final Chem grading.

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#15 Post by ribrash » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:37 pm

The only planes built at my school,St Kevins Comp,were paper ones.During the 3rd year in technical studies I managed to make a metal coat hanger and a wooden eggcup.

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#16 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:52 pm

There is much to be said for egg cups, as it involves a lot of hands-on time and learning how to use basic tools. DT has been very largely robbed of the time for this, to the point that one should not do DT if one actually wants a career in Engineering. I originally trained as a DT teacher, and have my woodwork workshop certificate, but the job that came up was Physics and I stayed there ever after. It turned out to be the correct choice the way schools actually run. I did a placement teaching DT in a comp as part of my training; very interesting. Wooden eggs were involved.

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#17 Post by 603DX » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:27 pm

I'm being dense about this no doubt, but what does "DT" stand for Fox? I've never encountered it in terms of education, despite wanting a career in Engineering, which I achieved by means of Physics, Pure and Applied Maths "A" levels, followed by a BSc (Eng) degree and Chartered Engineer status. I once used to read the Daily Telegraph, but that can't be the answer, can it? ;)))

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#18 Post by Ex-Ascot » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:29 pm

The first thing we made in woodwork was A tent peg. What use is one bloody tent peg. You can't believe the hash some guys made out of it. One thing was guaranteed. At the end of the year I would be top at woodwork and bottom at frog speak. I was pretty good at economics but lousy in Physics and Maths so went to uni to read Physics.
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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#19 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:37 pm

My apologies, Design and Technology. Was abbreviated to D&T for a while, then became DT.
Your choice of subjects is the recommended route in schools. DT has morphed into design or fashion. Actually building something in resistant materials has disappeared, as the specification has been successively "revised and enhanced" !

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Re: School pupils build a Eurofox kit aircraft.....

#20 Post by 603DX » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:21 pm

Thanks Fox, I now understand that particular meaning of the DT acronym. Regarding the recommended choice of subjects in schools for certain careers, that sometimes gets turned on its head I've found. I was a close contemporary of James Burke, who went into the "Arts" sixth, then went up to Oxbridge and took a Middle English degree, compared with my progress through the "Science" sixth towards engineering. Yet lo and behold, I found later that he had somehow become a "science guru" on BBC TV, first taking over from Raymond Baxter as the "Tomorrow's World" scientific presenter, then in 1969 being the main BBC frontman for the historic Armstrong/Alldrin moon landings! My daughter was then only four years old, but I raked her out of bed in the early hours of the morning to see the live landing coverage, which she still remembers me telling her was "history being made", but she also recalls my saying "ye gods, I was at school with him!" as Burke's domed forehead loomed on the TV screen. :-o It probably helped his career path that he turned out to be a brilliant polymath, picking up the "science" knowledge along the way.

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