Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#41 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:59 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:52 am
Looks like the Grenfall fire, and many other things these days - complete meltdown of almost every element of the system thanks to corner-cutting by accountants, blatant ignoring of safety rules, management who don't care a whit and can't be prosecuted, all covered up by PR.
Was there ever a time when people held up their hand and said 'fair cop Guv'?

Today the legal mantra is never admit fault.

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#42 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:20 pm

Lord Carrington, I think, over the Falklands, but there was no risk of prosecution there. Japanese CEOs do stand down also.
The problem is not the failure to admit fault, but that the legal system has largely been rendered incapable of prosecuting anyone but the poor and uninfluential. The death of Jerry Epstein in jail and what is happening to Assange also shows that the legal system will look the other way when the establishment wishes it to.

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#43 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:42 pm

Fox, remember the magic words never to say after a car crash or interrogation. "I'm sorry"

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#44 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:56 pm

I'm a Canadian now. We say sorry for everything! :D

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#45 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:08 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:42 pm
Fox, remember the magic words never to say after a car crash or interrogation. "I'm sorry"
I wish I never get involved in a car crash or interrogation as the one caused the accident but it would be cool to say "I'm sorry you are to blame"

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#46 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:13 pm

RiS:

"I'm sorry I can't answer the question."

"What do you say about killing all those innocent patients in the hospital?".

"I'm sorry , ,............... ."

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#47 Post by ian16th » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:21 pm

Saffers say 'Sorry' instead of 'Excuse me'.

Took some getting used to.
Cynicism improves with age

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#48 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:35 pm

Ian, as in Sorry you're in my way?

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#49 Post by boing » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:43 pm

Boeing went a bridge too far with this 737 "upgrade".

Totally unnecessary because if the object was to play the previous certification game then why did they not use the 757 as the basis. The 757 could carry between 200 and 295 passengers over a range of 3200 to 4000 miles. The 737 MAX could carry 210 to 230 passengers over a range of 3550 miles. Clearly there is a significant overlap of capability between the two aircraft.

Call the new aircraft the 757 SR or even the 737 MAX, what's in the name as far as certification is concerned, you could call it the 7577 if you wished. Shorten the fuselage a little if you really wanted to. The aircraft already had the long gear legs to accommodate new engines. Update the cockpit to reflect 737 type displays and navigation systems. Get it certified as a 737 clone for operational crew qualification purposes. Build in whatever airframe fabrication mods that have been learned since the original 737.

What would be significant is that the 737, 727 and 757 share fuselage designs, only the length was changed, so that (mock) certification, prior to the MAX fiasco, would probably have been fairly simple.

I imagine that the biggest objection to using the 757 as a base design would be objections from the sales department who think that a new, glamourous, name for a 737 is easier to sell than a recycled 757.


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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#50 Post by ian16th » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:07 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:35 pm
Ian, as in Sorry you're in my way?
Yes.
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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#51 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:37 am

I came across this article on another aviation related website.

It represents, I think anyway, a pretty good review of the management and technical culture that has brought Boeing to the bad place it finds itself in at the moment. When read, in toto, the extent of Boeing's financial and management hubris, technical negligence and downright corporate dishonesty is truly shocking.

https://newrepublic.com/article/154944/ ... revolution
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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#52 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:29 am

Excellent; thanks for posting
like the Wall Street analyst who cut him off mid-sentence:


“Look, I get it. What you’re telling me is that your business is different. That you’re special. Well, listen: Everybody thinks his business is different, because everybody is the same. Nobody. Is. Different.”

Translation: I am a Wall Street analyst. I have a financial hammer. You must be a nail.

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#53 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:33 am

Thank you Mr Green Goblin for posting the above link. Interesting and depressing reading.
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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#54 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:37 am

You could write this kind of thing about almost anything these days, education for one.

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#55 Post by ian16th » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:59 am

Bean counters R Us!
Cynicism improves with age

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#56 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:12 am



Release the lions!! :D


Actually, the problem is politicians, who have enabled bankers to gamble with unlimited amounts of other people's money knowing that there are zero negative consequences.

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#57 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:07 am

Talking of lions, the Lion Air Accident report is out...

http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_home/ntsc.htm
An unbroken chain of faulty aircraft design, poor pilot performance and maintenance oversights caused last year’s crash of a Lion Air 737 MAX, according to Indonesia’s air safety board. In its final report on the Oct. 29, 2018, crash off Jakarta, the report on Friday listed nine findings that formed a causal chain leading to the crash of Lion Air 610 in the Java Sea, which killed all 189 people aboard.

The nearly new 737 MAX plunged into the water 10 minutes after taking off from Jakarta. The crew lost control due to a malfunctioning trim subsystem called MCAS, but lapses in training, poor cockpit resource management and inadequate maintenance were also at fault, according to the Indonesian report. “From what we know, there are nine things that contributed to this accident,” Indonesian air accident investigator Nurcahyo Utomo said in a news conference announcing the report’s findings. “If one of the nine hadn’t occurred, maybe the accident wouldn’t have occurred,” he added.
Multiple causes of accident to Lion Air 737Max
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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#58 Post by Rwy in Sight » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:56 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:07 am
Talking of lions, the Lion Air Accident report is out...

http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_home/ntsc.htm
An unbroken chain of faulty aircraft design, poor pilot performance and maintenance oversights caused last year’s crash of a Lion Air 737 MAX, according to Indonesia’s air safety board. In its final report on the Oct. 29, 2018, crash off Jakarta, the report on Friday listed nine findings that formed a causal chain leading to the crash of Lion Air 610 in the Java Sea, which killed all 189 people aboard.

The nearly new 737 MAX plunged into the water 10 minutes after taking off from Jakarta. The crew lost control due to a malfunctioning trim subsystem called MCAS, but lapses in training, poor cockpit resource management and inadequate maintenance were also at fault, according to the Indonesian report. “From what we know, there are nine things that contributed to this accident,” Indonesian air accident investigator Nurcahyo Utomo said in a news conference announcing the report’s findings. “If one of the nine hadn’t occurred, maybe the accident wouldn’t have occurred,” he added.
Multiple causes of accident to Lion Air 737Max
Does this mean that Boeing was somewhat unfortunate about the grounding in a sense that the first accident was not absolute a 737 fault?

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#59 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:17 am

RiS, I think not. Inadequate servicing might have affected the angle of attack sensor but if both had been used, rather than one, they would have been aware of a conflict. All inadequate servicing did was to highlight the lack of redundancy or resilience.

I think many mods and safety features are introduced in the life of an aircraft as a result of actual experience but today to introduce a single point fail system should not happen.

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Re: Boeing in yet another technical pickle!

#60 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:45 pm

To have a single point fail system with that much control authority is a certification no-no. The FAA knew that, and Boeing knew that. Giving it some don't-worry-your-pretty-little-head name like MCAS doesn't change that, and is quite deliberate subterfuge. It's a stall prevention system. People need to go to jail, both from Boeing and the FAA, if this kind of thing is ever going to stop.

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