Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#21 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 05, 2021 3:51 am

The ZeroAvia demonstrator made an off airport landing...

ZeroAvia’s Piper M-class demonstrator—developed to test flight on hydrogen power—suffered an off-airport landing on April 29, 2021, just outside of the perimeter of the Cranfield airport in the UK. The aircraft was conducting a routine flight within the latter stages of its six-seat HyFlyer testing regime—which was expected to conclude in the next few weeks—recorded as ZeroAvia Test 86, the sixth test flight within the current segment of the program, according to a statement by the company. “The aircraft landed normally on its wheels in a flat grass field and almost came to a stop, but was damaged as it caught the left main gear and wing in the uneven terrain at the end of the field at low speed. Everybody involved is safe, and without injury. The incident was immediately reported to the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB), and the Fire Service attended on the ground, as is the standard procedure.”

ZeroAvia reported the current known facts regarding the incident: “The flight conformed to the approved test route over the airport; the structural integrity of ZeroAvia systems was maintained throughout the incident sequence and there were no unintended hydrogen or electrical releases and no fire; after the landing, the crew were able to safeguard the battery and safely release hydrogen from the onboard tanks, following ZeroAvia safety protocol; no fluid leaks were observed at the time; and full data logs were preserved and will be used in our investigation.” There was no response from the company at press time as to what led to the landing in the field, whether it was the result of a power loss, loss of control, or other emergency situation.

The six-seat HyFlyer test platform had been based at the Cranfield airport since shortly after the company obtained significant funding from UK Aerospace Research and Technology program, under the auspices of the Aerospace Technology Institute in September 2019. The company addressed the impact to the testing program as well, stating that the accident investigation “will undoubtedly disrupt our six-seat HyFlyer demonstration program that was coming to an end in the following weeks. However, we do not expect any negative impact on our commercial-intent HyFlyer 2 program targeting 10 to 20 seat aircraft, or our large-engine development program targeting 50-plus seat aircraft.”
- from Flying Magazine

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#22 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed May 05, 2021 7:00 am

TGG, I noted yesterday that 3 houses are to be built at RAF Spaedam to use hydrogen power and I think the gas production site on the site.

The problem I guess it that hydrogen has had a bad press, unlike coal or gas.

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#23 Post by G-CPTN » Wed May 05, 2021 7:14 am


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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#24 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 05, 2021 8:48 am

G-CPTN wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:14 am
RAF Spadeadam
Thanks for posting that very interesting link G-CPTN.
A stretch of the road to the site from Gilsland had to be bypassed to make access easier for heavy trucks and the abandoned section is still known as "half-shaft" due to its unfortunate effect on vehicle transmissions.
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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#25 Post by G-CPTN » Wed May 05, 2021 8:57 am

The site is 'bleak'.

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#26 Post by ian16th » Wed May 05, 2021 9:26 am

G-CPTN wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 8:57 am
The site is 'bleak'.
A bit like Marham then?
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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#27 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed May 05, 2021 12:21 pm

Ian, nah, civilisation is within reach from Marham. Spade has some unmemorable accommodation at a pub. My 'room' had a ground floor sitting area and bathroom with a ladder to the bed space.

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#28 Post by ian16th » Wed May 05, 2021 12:32 pm

When one looks at things objectively, airfields are bleak places!

On the line, on night shift at Oh dark thirty, in February. There wasn't much to choose between Marham, Coningsby, Dishforth or Lindholme.
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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#29 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed May 05, 2021 1:48 pm

ian16th wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:32 pm
When one looks at things objectively, airfields are bleak places!

On the line, on night shift at Oh dark thirty, in February. There wasn't much to choose between Marham, Coningsby, Dishforth or Lindholme.
Ah, nostalgia, the warming glow of sodium lights, the sky above obscured by low cloud, yellow rain drops cascading down (no sniggering in the 1/3's) the marrow freezing cold, the line hand-me-on rain wear, soaked from the previous shift.

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward -

#30 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:11 am

Idelandair signs up for hydrogen
Icelandair is to work with Universal Hydrogen to examine the potential for conversion of the carrier’s De Havilland Canada turboprops to hydrogen-electric power – the latest in a string of deals for the US clean-fuel start-up.

Covered by a letter of intent between the two parties, the pact adds to a previous agreement with Sweden’s Heart Aerospace, which is developing a 19-seat electric aircraft, as the carrier examines ways of decarbonising its domestic flights.
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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward

#31 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:16 am

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#32 Post by ricardian » Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:24 pm

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#33 Post by barkingmad » Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:12 am

Seems like electric cars will be competing with the hydrogen versions, so that’s all good then for the BigCorps who will cash in on the new fad.

But the electric versions don’t appear to be cutting the mustard as range problems inevitably involve frequent ‘tech stops’.

I understand the current (no pun intended!) enroute charging rate is 1 hour for 30 miles of range, so that puts the trip time from London to Edinburgh back the the days of the early trains and cars.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/08/07/9382173/

Even Bunter’s communications tart has admitted she’ll carry on using her VW diesel for trips of any length, so that is a good start to the COP26 Farce about to kick off in Glasgow later this year.

And let’s not forget the eco-bus taken to Cornwall to show off the latest in technology became stranded there because there were no charging points suitable for such a vehicle?

Additionally, even the car and and charging point manufacturers have not standardised their plug & socket combinations so some will be faced with the old round pin versus square pin dilemma. You couldn’t make this stuff up for an updated version of “Yes Minister”!!!

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#34 Post by ricardian » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:47 pm

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#35 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:06 pm

barkingmad wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:12 am
Seems like electric cars will be competing with the hydrogen versions, so that’s all good then for the BigCorps who will cash in on the new fad.

But the electric versions don’t appear to be cutting the mustard as range problems inevitably involve frequent ‘tech stops’.

I understand the current (no pun intended!) enroute charging rate is 1 hour for 30 miles of range, so that puts the trip time from London to Edinburgh back the the days of the early trains and cars.
Utter bollocks! Complete *****.

I've driven my Model S the length and breadth of Europe and never had a problem with driving a thousand kilometres (620 miles) in a day. Modern chargers push around 140kW. Driving at motorway speeds 300 miles worth of charge takes about 40 minutes. Driving a thousand Klicks takes about 12 hours including recharge time. On the autobahns I found that the optimum speed is 160kph. Any faster than that and you run into heat buildup problems which limit the rate at which you can charge. Much slower than that and you are taking so long to cover the mileage that your day's driving takes too long.

The newest chargers can blast up to 200kW into the most modern cars.

Hydrogen cars are the oil/gas industry's last gasp. Hydrogen production is horrendously energy inefficient and so requires copious amount of oil or gas (or electricity) to produce.

I guess it will need a new breakthrough in battery technology before electric aeroplanes become practical. Such a breakthrough will certainly come, perhaps in as little as a decade or two.

Thanks to Tesla, electric cars are now mainstream. As little as 30 years ago they were futuristic and had to be crushed, quite literally in the case of GM's first attempt to make and market an electric car.

This documentary is now obsolete. The electric car most certainly was killed - for a decade or two. Then Tesla changed the world with the Model S.



[media]https://watchdocumentaries.com/who-kill ... ctric-car/[/media]

It's interesting to note that 120 years ago most cars were electric. Then Big Oil used its muscle them put them out of circulation.

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#36 Post by talmacapt » Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:54 pm

UP

I am very interested in this discussion as we are thinking to replace our 14 year old Landrover Freelander.

This is not an ethical choice - I am not concerned by climate change or pollution issues - but I am fascinated by the, relative, simplicity of electric power.

I have a need, 3/4 times a year, to drive to the north of Finland, about 1200 km each way.

With the exception of the first 100km, in the summer only, the maximum speed limit is 100 kph, 80kph in winter, but for most of the journey, summer and winter, the limit is 80kph.

In summer we tend to drive all the way, normally night stopping twice in hotels, the temperature varies between 10 and 30 degrees.

In the winter, with studded tyres, we tend, but wish for the drive all way option, to take the car sleeper to Rovaniemi and then have a further drive of some 400 km.

The temperature is normally -10 in Helsinki, but can be -25, and usually below -25 after getting off the train.

It can be below -40, for up to two weeks, while we are there.

How would a Tesla cope in these conditions?

I have tried googling to find range/temp graphs but there is not much information.

I have "heard" that Tesla have a -30 minimum operating temperature and would be interested in your comments.

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#37 Post by Undried Plum » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:41 pm

talmacapt wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:54 pm
UP

I am very interested in this discussion as we are thinking to replace our 14 year old Landrover Freelander.

This is not an ethical choice - I am not concerned by climate change or pollution issues - but I am fascinated by the, relative, simplicity of electric power.

I have a need, 3/4 times a year, to drive to the north of Finland, about 1200 km each way.

With the exception of the first 100km, in the summer only, the maximum speed limit is 100 kph, 80kph in winter, but for most of the journey, summer and winter, the limit is 80kph.

In summer we tend to drive all the way, normally night stopping twice in hotels, the temperature varies between 10 and 30 degrees.

In the winter, with studded tyres, we tend, but wish for the drive all way option, to take the car sleeper to Rovaniemi and then have a further drive of some 400 km.

The temperature is normally -10 in Helsinki, but can be -25, and usually below -25 after getting off the train.

It can be below -40, for up to two weeks, while we are there.

How would a Tesla cope in these conditions?

I have tried googling to find range/temp graphs but there is not much information.

I have "heard" that Tesla have a -30 minimum operating temperature and would be interested in your comments.

Here's what the manual says:
Temperature Limits
Do not expose Model S to ambient temperatures above 140° F (60° C) or below -22° F (-30° C) for more than 24 hours at a time.
Teslas are the most popular car in Norway and they have similar winter extremes to Finland.

Remember that you would need to keep the car in a garage overnight in temps of -30°C or lower, but that you can heat the battery and the cabin overnight if you have power in the garage. So long as those temps are much above the limit I don't see any kind of problem. You would need to bring the battpack up above -10°C to get any decent amount of power out of it though.

There's GooChoob video somewhere of a guy sleeping in his Tesla overnight in -20°C in central Norway. I think that was in a layby or camping spot without external power, but I'll have to search to find the video before confirming that bit.

General energy consumption is definitely affected by very low temps though. In Scotland with the car cold-soaked at -8°C I noticed a clear increase in energy consumption per mile, mostly due to increase in air density and consequent drag as well as snow/slush friction.

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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#38 Post by Undried Plum » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:52 pm


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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#39 Post by ricardian » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:51 am

Ricardian, Stronsay, Orkney UK
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Re: Is hydrogen the way forward - ZeroAvia

#40 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:06 pm

ricardian wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:51 am
Too much power!
Like Jackie Weaver, you Orcadians, have the "power!"

You need more cables to help out in Scotland and ultimately, here in England.

A hydrogen producing centre... :-bd



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