5G Fears

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5G Fears

#1 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:42 pm

A political fight over 5G could upend air travel: What you should know

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/22/tech/faa ... index.html

(CNN)From mask requirements to waived change fees, the pandemic has dramatically changed what it's like to fly. But beginning early next year, even more changes could be coming to air travel — ones that have nothing to do with the coronavirus.

These changes could lead to flight delays or diversions affecting tens of millions of passengers across hundreds of thousands of flights, according to aviation industry estimates.
It all comes down to a political fight over 5G, the next-generation cell service technology that's begun to be supported in the latest smartphones. Here's what you need to know:
The concern
Transportation regulators are concerned that a version of 5G that's due to be switched on in January could interfere with some airplane instruments, and many aviation industry groups share those fears — despite reassurances from federal telecom regulators and wireless carriers.

Specifically, the Federal Aviation Administration is worried that 5G cellular antennas near some airports — not air travelers' mobile devices — could throw off readings from some aircraft equipment designed to tell pilots how far they are from the ground. Those systems, known as radar altimeters, are used throughout a flight and are considered critical equipment. (Radar altimeters differ from standard altimeters, which rely on air pressure readings and do not use radio signals to gauge altitude.)
The agency is so concerned that this month it issued an urgent order forbidding pilots from using the potentially affected altimeters around airports where low-visibility conditions would otherwise require them. This new rule could keep planes from getting to some airports in certain circumstances, because pilots would be unable to land using instruments alone.
It's not entirely clear which airports this rule may affect. When it rolled out the order, the FAA said the exact airports would be specified later once it had more information from wireless carriers about where the 5G infrastructure might be placed. (The FAA didn't immediately respond to a request for comment for this story.)
The clock is ticking. On Jan. 5, wireless carriers are expected to activate the 5G service that relies on the radio frequencies the FAA is worried about.
According to a service map by the Federal Communications Commission, big swaths of California, Florida, New England, Texas and the midwest will gain 5G coverage. But aviation groups warn that it could jeopardize some of the nation's largest airports, including in Los Angeles, New York and Houston.
How 5G signals work
The 5G signals will travel over radio frequencies that are collectively known as the C-Band. This band of airwaves is attractive to wireless carriers because it offers a good balance between cellular range and capacity — two key features of any wireless network. (Other sets of airwaves besides the C-Band are also used to carry 5G, but the current debate focuses on just the C-Band frequencies.)
On the spectrum of radio frequencies used for wireless communications, the C-Band sits right next to the band of frequencies used by the aircraft altimeters. Well, almost: The two are intentionally separated by a so-called guard band — essentially "blank" airwaves — to safeguard against interference.
To further address any aircraft risks, Verizon and AT&T — which owns WarnerMedia, CNN's parent company — offered in November to limit the power of their 5G antennas and to take other precautionary measures. Separately, the companies also agreed to postpone the 5G rollout from Dec. 5, 2021 to Jan. 5, 2022.
But that hasn't been enough to allay the concerns of the FAA, whose 11th-hour order would have "an enormous negative impact on the aviation industry," the CEOs of Boeing and Airbus wrote in a letter Monday to the Department of Transportation. The CEOs added: "We agree that 5G interference could adversely affect the ability of aircraft to safely operate."
The letter cites an estimate published by the industry group Airlines for America, which predicts the FAA restrictions will disrupt 345,000 passenger flights, 32 million passengers and 5,400 cargo flights. The FAA's own order estimates that 6,800 US airplanes could be affected by the plan, along with 1,800 helicopters.
That's a lot of disruption over a fear of possible air safety risk, an issue that the FCC spent years researching before ultimately opening up the C-Band for 5G usage in a 2020 order.
In addition to their own proposed changes, wireless carriers should be required to do more — such as further reducing 5G power levels and ensuring that antennas are pointed below the horizon, an aviation industry coalition said in a letter to the FCC this month.

Part 2 to follow

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Re: 5G Fears

#2 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:43 pm

5G Part 2

5G in other countries
Technology experts say that while 5G antennas could theoretically lead to interference around airports, the potential for interference is an ever-present feature of all wireless communications — not just 5G — and that so far regulators around the world have done a good job of handling it.
"It's worth noting that about 40 other countries have approved use of 5G in C-Band," wrote Harold Feld, a telecom expert at the consumer group Public Knowledge, in a November blog post on the issue.

"Japan in particular operates 5G networks today much closer to the altimeter band than the 220 MHz separation adopted by the FCC. So far, there are no reliable reports of any harmful interference with air altimeters," Feld wrote. "It's possible for the FCC to make a mistake on this, sure," Feld added. "But regulators in 40 different countries? And with no incidents where operation has already begun?"
According to the aviation industry, countries such as Japan and South Korea operate 5G at a fraction of the power levels permitted in the United States, while Canada has an interim rule requiring antennas be tilted downward and in Europe, the guard band is 100 megahertz wider than in the US.
According to the wireless sector, however, countries such as Japan only impose power limitations on frequencies the United States doesn't even plan to use for 5G. And until 2023, when 5G is more fully rolled out in the C-Band, there will actually be much more "blank" spectrum than just the guard band separating cellular traffic from altimeter operations — as much as 400 MHz altogether, according to the FCC's 2020 order. That may give everyone involved more time to assess any real-world risks and to adapt.
Should you worry?
So who is right, and do air travelers have anything to fear?
In his experience, Feld wrote, FCC engineers who make decisions about spectrum are "extremely aware that if they screw up people could die" — which he said reveals how the FAA publicly contradicting the FCC is less about a realistic danger to public safety than a type of bureaucratic power struggle that has become increasingly common across the federal government. (For its part, the Transportation Department has been expressing reservations about the 5G rollout for over a year.)
The FCC didn't immediately respond to a request for comment for this story.
The FAA isn't the only agency to issue dire warnings about potential interference from changes in how the US uses its wireless airwaves. In 2019, the Pentagon said that opening up a different range of frequencies for 5G usage — a set of airwaves known as the L-Band — could interfere with military GPS systems. And in another high-profile fight, the FCC has been at odds with NASA and NOAA over the impact that 5G could have on weather satellites.
In a statement earlier this month, the FAA said it was continuing to work with the FCC and telecom carriers to find a solution. Since the wireless carriers have already proposed some changes, and the aviation industry is calling for more, the haggling appears to be focused on how far the telecom companies will ultimately need to go. The negotiations also reflect the aviation sector's approach to risk in what is inherently a life-or-death business and where small margins of error are not tolerated.
A person familiar with the negotiations told CNN Business that the FCC, the FAA and all industry participants have a working plan to limit the impact of the FAA's aircraft restrictions. After the FAA outlines the specific airports that will be subject to the limitations — again, based on infrastructure data provided by the wireless carriers — the FAA will call on altimeter manufacturers to test their equipment against the new operational conditions proposed by the telecom industry. Altimeters that prove to be unaffected would then be deemed safe to use, making it possible to avoid some of the feared flight delays and diversions.
"Right now there is a nonstop, constant exchange of information going on between the federal agencies and the industry stakeholders on both sides," the person said. "Meetings at all levels, every day. There is a plan in place and everyone is in agreement on what that plan is and executing on that."
Ernesto Falcon, a telecom expert at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a digital rights group, said air travelers need not worry about 5G interference if the FCC has cleared the matter, because the agency has a proven track record in preventing harmful interference.
Since there's only so much of the radio spectrum to go around, Falcon added, and because demand for those airwaves is at an all-time high, anytime the FCC changes how that scarce resource can be used it tends to provoke a backlash from those who don't benefit from the new system.
"Someone has to call balls and strikes on whether those objections are legitimate or self-serving," Falcon said, and in the United States, that's officially the job of the FCC.
As if to underscore the point, and in an unusual show of force, this month six former FCC chairs, a group that includes both Democrats and Republicans, wrote a joint letter lamenting that the interagency fight over 5G and aviation has unfolded in ways that risk damaging the US government's credibility.
"This debate should not be fought publicly in a way that undermines consumer confidence in the process," the former chairs wrote. "The FAA position threatens to derail the reasoned conclusions reached by the FCC after years of technical analysis and study."

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Re: 5G Fears

#3 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:48 pm

Boeing and Airbus want Biden administration to delay rollout of 5G cell service, citing safety concerns

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/21/business ... index.html

New York (CNN Business)The world's biggest commercial airplane manufacturers are telling the Biden Administration to delay the rollout of 5G cell service next month.

Boeing (BA) CEO David Calhoun and Airbus Americas CEO Jeffery Knittel sent a letter to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg to say the January 5 rollout could cause interference that could "adversely affect the ability of aircraft to safely operate."
At issue are instruments known as radar altimeters that pilots of commercial airliners need to make safe landings in low visibility conditions. An industry analysis says interference could affect hundreds of thousands of flights each year, delaying flights or causing them to divert.

FAA issues aircraft restrictions linked to 5G technology, warns of possible flight diversions
The CEOs say they have developed a new proposal to limit the power of 5G transmissions near airports, and call on the Biden administration to work with the Federal Communications Commission to adopt such a plan.
The impacts of allowing 5G to deploy, "are massive, and come at a time when our industry is still struggling from the COVID-19 pandemic," the CEOs said.
he Federal Aviation Administration announced a new rule earlier this month that forbids pilots from using auto-landing and other certain flight systems at low altitudes where 5G wireless signals could interfere with onboard instruments that measure a plane's distance to the ground.
The rule, which affects more than 6,800 US airplanes and dozens of aircraft manufacturers, could lead to disruptions in some flight routes involving low-visibility conditions, There is a potential risk, the FAA said, that the 5G signals could lead to faulty readings that may make flying unsafe in these conditions.
Characterizing the orders as urgent, the FAA bypassed the typical public feedback process in issuing the restrictions.

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Re: 5G Fears

#4 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:10 pm

Shouldn't this be an ICAO thing?

Something as globally widespread as mobile phone networks are a transnational issue. Radalts are a significant element in autoland systems, so if there is a frequency clash which can blur or distort the radalt signals it really must be addressed internationally, not just parochially by one nation's aviation authority.

Smearing peanut butter on a tinfoil hat might not work, y'know. Not without extensive field trials, anyway.

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Re: 5G Fears

#5 Post by Boac » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:13 pm

Works for me.

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Re: 5G Fears

#6 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:10 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:10 pm
Shouldn't this be an ICAO thing?

Something as globally widespread as mobile phone networks are a transnational issue. Radalts are a significant element in autoland systems, so if there is a frequency clash which can blur or distort the radalt signals it really must be addressed internationally, not just parochially by one nation's aviation authority.

Smearing peanut butter on a tinfoil hat might not work, y'know. Not without extensive field trials, anyway.
I agree. What is particularly egregious about the situation is that this parlous situation was well understood well before the inception of the 5G standard, but greed simply Trumped (literally) the science, the international co-operation and the common sense needed to solve this problem.
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Re: 5G Fears

#7 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:13 pm

Blame the Gooks Dinks Chinks Japs Norks.

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Re: 5G Fears

#8 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:41 am

AT&T and Verizon agree to postpone 5G rollout near airports by 2 weeks

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/03/tech/att ... index.html

(CNN Business)AT&T and Verizon have agreed to postpone their planned rollouts of 5G infrastructure near airports by two weeks, averting — for now — feared widespread disruptions to air travel and shipping as well as a potential legal battle over the matter.

Both carriers confirmed late Monday evening that they will hold off on activating 5G services near airports until January 19, and that in the meantime, officials will continue working on adapting French-style restrictions on 5G to the United States.
"At Secretary [of Transportation Pete] Buttigieg's request, we have voluntarily agreed to one additional two-week delay of our deployment of C-Band 5G services," an AT&T spokesperson said in a statement. "We also remain committed to the six-month protection zone mitigations we outlined in our letter. We know aviation safety and 5G can co-exist and we are confident further collaboration and technical assessment will allay any issues."
AT&T (T) is the parent company of WarnerMedia, of which CNN is a part.
Verizon (VZ) has also agreed to a two-week delay, according to spokesman Rich Young. He said the delay "promises the certainty of bringing this nation our game-changing 5G network in January delivered over America's best and most reliable network."

The announcement comes as aviation industry officials had been expected to sue the Federal Communications Commission in a last-ditch bid to keep the rollout from taking effect on Jan. 5. Preparations to file the court petition were already underway when news of the agreement arrived, according to an airline industry official, who said that the litigation would be paused in light of the two-week extension.
The official added that behind the scenes, negotiators had been working "frantically to come to an agreement" and that Monday's result may "seem a little dramatic, but that's sometimes how things work. This is potentially a really good result in the interim, here."
In December, the Federal Aviation Administration issued an urgent warning that it planned to ban pilots from using a key aircraft instrument amid concerns that 5G signals could interfere with the devices — a decision the agency said would likely lead to widespread flight delays and diversions.
In a statement, the FAA thanked the wireless carriers.
"Safety is the core of our mission and this guides all of our decisions," the agency said. "We look forward to using the additional time and space to reduce flight disruptions associated with this 5G deployment."

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Re: 5G Fears

#9 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:32 am

PHXPhlyer wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:41 am
AT&T and Verizon agree to postpone 5G rollout near airports by 2 weeks

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/03/tech/att ... index.html

(CNN Business)AT&T and Verizon have agreed to postpone their planned rollouts of 5G infrastructure near airports by two weeks, averting — for now — feared widespread disruptions to air travel and shipping as well as a potential legal battle over the matter.

Both carriers confirmed late Monday evening that they will hold off on activating 5G services near airports until January 19, and that in the meantime, officials will continue working on adapting French-style restrictions on 5G to the United States.
"At Secretary [of Transportation Pete] Buttigieg's request, we have voluntarily agreed to one additional two-week delay of our deployment of C-Band 5G services," an AT&T spokesperson said in a statement. "We also remain committed to the six-month protection zone mitigations we outlined in our letter. We know aviation safety and 5G can co-exist and we are confident further collaboration and technical assessment will allay any issues."
AT&T (T) is the parent company of WarnerMedia, of which CNN is a part.
Verizon (VZ) has also agreed to a two-week delay, according to spokesman Rich Young. He said the delay "promises the certainty of bringing this nation our game-changing 5G network in January delivered over America's best and most reliable network."

The announcement comes as aviation industry officials had been expected to sue the Federal Communications Commission in a last-ditch bid to keep the rollout from taking effect on Jan. 5. Preparations to file the court petition were already underway when news of the agreement arrived, according to an airline industry official, who said that the litigation would be paused in light of the two-week extension.
The official added that behind the scenes, negotiators had been working "frantically to come to an agreement" and that Monday's result may "seem a little dramatic, but that's sometimes how things work. This is potentially a really good result in the interim, here."
In December, the Federal Aviation Administration issued an urgent warning that it planned to ban pilots from using a key aircraft instrument amid concerns that 5G signals could interfere with the devices — a decision the agency said would likely lead to widespread flight delays and diversions.
In a statement, the FAA thanked the wireless carriers.
"Safety is the core of our mission and this guides all of our decisions," the agency said. "We look forward to using the additional time and space to reduce flight disruptions associated with this 5G deployment."

PP
That it came to this at the 11th hour is shocking in itself!
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Re: 5G Fears

#10 Post by Boac » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:29 am

TGG - why copy the whole post?

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Re: 5G Fears

#11 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:56 am

Boac wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:29 am
TGG - why copy the whole post?
Why not?

Actually because it is easier when using my phone! Simple answer! One click as opposed having to fiddle around editing without a mouse with my digits on a small screen!
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Re: 5G Fears

#12 Post by Boac » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:21 am

Good answer - my answer is because I need to trawl though PHX's 'copied' post to make sure I haven't missed any TGG inputs.

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Re: 5G Fears

#13 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:11 pm

This isn't going to be solved in two weeks. This problem is months away from a solution. The first video is well worth watching. The extent of the problem was surfaced years ago and the fact that the FAA and the telco's in the US have not come to an agreement on standards, let alone made, and tested any recommendations to mitigate the known risks, talks to a huge failure of governance from the US government all the way down to the relevant corporate boardrooms. Lives could be put at risk if this issue is further bungled by all the relevant parties such as the ICAO, and other international players too.

Helicopter operations could be the most adversely impacted although all operations, in all aircraft, in airspace where radar altimeters are used, could be impacted by the propagation of 5G signals in the affected frequency ranges.




The following slides sum up the issue succinctly.

https://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/2021 ... P_Rev1.pdf

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Re: 5G Fears

#14 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:03 pm

This Forbes article sums up the US situation very well.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler ... 0b59a4f1e9

As they say in Afrikaans the current situation "is 'n blote fok op"...
In December 2020, a group of 15 aviation associations sent a letter to the FCC, calling on the Commission to suspend the sale of licenses (Auction 107) for 5G use for spectrum in the 3.7–3.98 GHz band.

The auction went ahead and the reported 57 bidders including all major U.S. telecoms had put it into the record books by January 2021 with combined bidding exceeding $76.5 billion. That easily beat the previous best spectrum auction of about $45 billion in 2015 and ultimately netted $81 billion. Network carriers are expected to begin using the spectrum for 5G starting December 5 in 46 markets across the country.

Over the summer, the RTCA report and aviation industry concerns reverberated with the FAA. Reuters reported that in an October 6 letter to federal agencies revealed last week, FAA Deputy Administrator Bradley Mims said the agency shares "the deep concern about the potential impact to aviation safety resulting from interference to radar altimeter performance from 5G network operations in the C-band."

FAA held a lengthy mid-October meeting with the aviation industry on the issue which likely led to the SAIB issued this week. In a statement provided to me earlier this week, the FAA emphasized that it has consulted closely with the FCC and other agencies on 5G radar altimeter interference and continues to do so.

The FAA wants aviation and 5G cellular technology to safely coexist it says, but is simultaneously taking steps to provide aviation users with relevant safety information.

That information is in the SAIB which “urges stakeholders to be aware of the potential degradation to the capabilities of safety systems and other equipment that depend on radio altimeters, particularly during low-altitude operations.” The agency says that aircraft operators should prepare for the possibility that 5G transmitters and other technology could cause certain safety equipment to malfunction, requiring them to take mitigating action that could affect flight operations.

Notably, the FAA recommends that “pilots remind passengers that all portable electronic devices equipped with 5G be should be turned off or switched to airplane mode during flight.” The SAIB also asks operators who experience interference to immediately report the situation.
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Re: 5G Fears

#15 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:59 pm

AT&T and Verizon have agreed to delay their launch of so-called 5G wireless transmissions for two weeks beyond 5 January, diffusing a showdown with the US aviation industry and the US Department of Transportation (DoT).

The telecom companies and US aviation regulators, however, appear not to have reached a broader agreement to settle the dispute – and prevent flight disruptions – beyond the two-week window.

At issue is whether fifth-generation (5G) wireless transmissions, which operate in the C-Band, will interfere with aircraft altimeters.


AT&T and Verizon say they will not begin 5G transmissions as planned on 5 January, but will delay for two weeks.

In recent days, US transportation secretary Pete Buttigieg had asked the companies for the two-week delay. They initially brushed off that request but have come around.

“It’s clear that this irresponsible roll-out of 5G wasn’t ready for take-off,” US union the Air Line Pilots Association says in response to the news. “We are hopeful that this delay will enable the wireless industry and the broader aviation community to work together on effective solutions.”

Buttigieg also asked the companies to further delay 5G transmissions near certain “priority” airports until no later than the end of March.

AT&T and Verizon have not publicly agreed to the airport-specific measures, suggesting the dispute will continue in the coming weeks.

5G transmissions will be in the 3700-3980MHz range, which the aviation industry says is too close to the 4200-4400MHz range used by radio altimeters, risking interference.

On 7 December, the Federal Aviation Administration issued an order prohibiting certain flight operations in areas of potential interference. In recent days, Buttigieg warned widespread flight disruptions were likely if the telecom companies launched 5G on 5 January.

AT&T and Verizon have insisted 5G transmissions will not interfere with the altimeters – the same conclusion reached by the US Federal Communications Commission (FCC), which granted access to the C-band spectrum.

The telecom industry has also faced immense pressure to delay 5G from US lawmakers and the aviation industry.

On 3 January, a coalition of aviation manufacturing groups, including Aerospace Industries Association, urged “the White House to intervene today to delay the imminent rollout of C-Band 5G signals”.

Also on 3 January, Peter DeFazio, chair of the US House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, asked FCC commissioner Jessica Rosenworcel to postpone the 5G launch.

The telecom industry says 5G has proven safe to aviation in some 40 other countries, citing France as a particular example.

But the FAA says 5G in France operates at “much lower” power levels than authorised in the USA, and in a different spectrum – 3600-3800 MHz, which is farther from that used by radio altimeters.
https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/ata ... 07.article
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Re: 5G Fears

#16 Post by llondel » Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:53 pm

Bring back the flight engineer. You could dangle him below the aircraft on a rope during the descent and when he yelled you were probably too low.

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Re: 5G Fears

#17 Post by Boac » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:07 pm

Actually, when he STOPPED yelling you were too low.

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Re: 5G Fears

#18 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:14 am

Well, carrying on the yelling metaphor, from the last good joke and segueing on to the 5G industry bad joke, the FAA have been trying to get the government and the short sighted corporate, mammon loving, telco's to take heed...

https://rotor.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... y-2021.pdf
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Re: 5G Fears

#19 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:31 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:14 am
Well, carrying on the yelling metaphor, from the last good joke and segueing on to the 5G industry bad joke, the FAA have been trying to get the government and the short sighted corporate, mammon grubbing, telco's to take heed...

https://rotor.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... y-2021.pdf
It is interesting that the FAA had been petitioned by Airbus, to try and rectify this egregious situation. Where are the US aircraft manufacturers in this? High on the smell of complacency, corporate hubris and stock price I guess

To be fair I do know that Collins have been all over this problem like a rash!
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