Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

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Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#1 Post by Alisoncc » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:56 am

The 10 biggest US airlines have warned that the impending switch-on of 5G mobile phone services will cause "major disruption" to flights.

They said the start of Verizon and AT&T 5G mobile phone services, planned for Wednesday, would cause a "completely avoidable economic calamity".

Airlines fear C-band 5G signals will disrupt planes' navigation systems, particularly those used in bad weather.

The warning was issued in a letter sent to US aviation authorities.

The chief executives of American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines were joined by others in saying: "Immediate intervention is needed to avoid significant operational disruption to air passengers, shippers, supply chain and delivery of needed medical supplies", including vaccine distribution.

The BBC has seen the letter outlining their urgent concerns. It was sent to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigeg, as well as the head of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the chair of the Federal Communications Commission and the director of the National Economic Council.

The BBC understands that negotiations are continuing at the highest levels of the US government about what has been described as a "very fluid situation".

Top US phone firms agree delay of 5G rollout
Boeing and Airbus warn US over 5G safety concerns

The airlines want 5G signals to be excluded from "the approximate two miles of airport runways at affected airports as defined by the FAA on 19 January 2022".

"This will allow 5G to be deployed while avoiding harmful impacts on the aviation industry, travelling public, supply chain, vaccine distribution, our workforce and broader economy.

"We further ask that the FAA immediately identify those base stations closest to key airport runways that need to be addressed to ensure safety and avoid disruption," they added.

These concerns were recently highlighted by the two big planemakers, Airbus and Boeing, in a rare joint warning.

The group of airlines said: "Airplane manufacturers have informed us that there are huge swathes of the operating fleet that may need to be indefinitely grounded.

"In addition to the chaos caused domestically, this lack of usable wide-body aircraft could potentially strand tens of thousands of Americans overseas."

In an update on Sunday, the FAA, which oversees aviation safety across the US, said it had cleared "an estimated 45% of the US commercial fleet to perform low-visibility landings at many of the airports where 5G C-band will be deployed".

The FAA added that it had approved "two radio altimeter models that are installed in a wide variety of Boeing and Airbus planes".

"Even with these new approvals, flights at some airports may still be affected," the regulator said.

"The FAA also continues to work with manufacturers to understand how radar altimeter data is used in other flight control systems. Passengers should check with their airlines if weather is forecast at a destination where 5G interference is possible."

Phone companies have spent tens of billions of dollars on upgrading their networks to deploy the 5G technology, which brings much faster internet services and greater connectivity.

There have been several delays already because of the aviation concerns, with launch dates in December and earlier this month both being pushed back.

US wireless industry group CTIA has previously said 5G is safe and accused the aviation industry of fearmongering and distorting facts.

"A delay will cause real harm. Pushing back deployment one year would subtract $50bn in economic growth, just as our nation recovers and rebuilds from the pandemic," said CTIA chief executive Meredith Attwell Baker in a blog post in November.
Might follow up on this. Radar altimeters have always operated in "C" Band. So have the Govt sold off use of sections of "C" to the Telcos ?
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#2 Post by Boac » Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:34 am


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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#3 Post by barkingmad » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:43 pm

Someone, somewhere, must have known about this potential conflict and flagged it up?

Or is US aviation development still operating in Boeing 737 Max mode where whistleblowers are silenced and others keep schtum for the sake of their jobs?

There must be many nice weather airfields in the dry bits of the US where they could have had some "autoland" LVPs trials with ace test pilots who would fly a 'frame in autoland mode whilst being sprayed with 5G emissions, ready to grab control of the now-bucking bronco and take it to safety?

I love the suggestion that pax will check the TAFs & Actuals at their destination, having believed that was my job and that of my company so where did I go so horribly wrong? 8-}

Ilonndel sez: "Bring back the flight engineer. You could dangle him below the aircraft on a rope during the descent and when he yelled you were probably too low."

I currently socialise with ex-RAF F/Es and will pass your suggestion on to them. What's your address?

Edited to add: Pleas could this thread be merged with the original "5G' thread asap? :-?

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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#4 Post by Boac » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:53 pm

BREAKING Emirates suspends flights to several U.S. destinations until further notice due to 5G deployment

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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#5 Post by llondel » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:43 am

It concerns me that radio altimeters are that sensitive to disruption. Imagine how easy it would be to build something capable of doing the same, and deploying it for a brief period to take down an aircraft. The frequency band they say is causing the problem is 10% off the altimeter band, so it should be amenable to filtering and proper design. I'm sure there's other spectrum being used way closer than that.

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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#6 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:10 am

They already made that movie with an ILS.

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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#7 Post by Woody » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:10 pm

It’s certainly brought out the tinfoil hat brigade on Facebook :-*
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#8 Post by Boac » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:53 pm

Maybe that is the answer? Screen the signals.

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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#9 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:16 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:53 pm
Maybe that is the answer? Screen the signals.
Reduce the power of the signals in and around airports, shift the frequencies allowed in these areas to the lower end of the C band (as the French have done, and show, using evidence based analysis that this works for the majority of modern radar altimeters, as the French have done!
Do other countries have this problem?

France, among more than 40 nations, does not have this problem at all. Compared to the US, France has use reason, science, and evidence to test the proposition that 5G transmissions interfere with altimeters. When the theoretical study was published in October 2020, France’s National Frequency Agency (ANFR) tookit seriously. It convened the relevant parties: French Civil Aviation Authority (DGAC), Arcep the telecom regulator, and industry, including aircraft maker Airbus. They set up a testing plan, performed tests, and subsequently developed mitigation at airports. They were able to keep the 5G rollout on schedule. In France, these government agencies realize that they must work together for the good of the people. They recognize that aviation safety and 5G can and should exist together.
https://strandconsult.dk/grounding-5g-i ... s-charade/


One point of view!
The technical explanation: 5G, the C-band, and altimeters5G, or 5th generation, is the current generation of mobile wireless broadband. It’s a high-speed broadband service delivered through the air, rather than by wire. The standards of 5G are developed through a professional global organization called the Third Generation Partnership or 3GPP. 5G is disruptive to traditional wireline sources of broadband like DSL, cable and fiber. 5G is an important technology that creates competition in the broadband marketplace because it is more economical to deploy than wireline technologies.

The C-band refers to a set of radio frequencies between 3.7 and 4.2 GHz. C-band is harmonized globally for 5G because it has physical properties well-suited for broadband, including the ability to transmit large amounts of data across long-distances. While North American, Asian, and European spectrum bands don’t match up exactly, there is overlap such that the physical properties are the same. To compensate, the US adopted a 220 MHz guard band around the operation of altimeters, twice the request of the aviation industry, which ensure the transmission of 5G and altimeters don’t interfere. Economists and spectrum experts have observed that the guard band, as large as the C-band space licensed for 5G, is excessive. Moreover, it represents a dead weight loss to society, as the frequency would otherwise be licensed, bringing tens of trillions of dollars of revenue to the Treasury. The further injustice is that a handful of atavistic altimeter actors are prioritized over of some 300 million Americans who want more broadband.

An altimeter is a gauge on aircraft used to measure distance to the ground. Unlike providers of 5G phones and infrastructure, the makers of altimeters do not engage in a global standards process. While modern planes have multiple modern altimeters, old aircraft still have old altimeters. US regulators have not regulated altimeters because it adds additional cost to aviation, though minimal in the scheme of things. This entire situation would have been avoided if makers of altimeters professionalized their product development with technical standards.
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#10 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:02 pm

British Airways is among the airlines cancelling US flights due to 5G safety concerns.

The action is in response to fears that the activation of the C-band strand of the mobile phone service near US airports on Wednesday could disrupt planes’ navigation systems.

Boeing 777s are thought to be particularly at risk of being affected.

The introduction of the technology has been halted in some parts of the US but is going ahead elsewhere.

The UK’s Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said it has “issued safety advice” to airlines.

British Airways cancelled a handful of flights from Heathrow to Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, and San Francisco on Wednesday.

The airline said in a statement: “Safety is always our priority. We are monitoring the situation in the US closely and will continue to review our schedule in the next few hours.

“We’re disappointed that some of our customers are facing potential disruption and will update them as soon as possible on any changes to their travel plans.”

The carrier said some flights due to be operated by Boeing 777s are using different, larger aircraft such as the Airbus A380 to ensure people can still fly on the same day they booked.

Other airlines have made many more cancellations.

Emirates suspended all its flights to nine US airports on Wednesday “until further notice”.

The Dubai-based carrier told customers the measure was “due to operational concerns associated with the planned deployment of 5G mobile network services in the US at certain airports”.

It added: “Emirates regrets any inconvenience caused. We are working closely with aircraft manufacturers and the relevant authorities to alleviate operational concerns, and we hope to resume our US services as soon as possible.”

Other airlines to cancel flights include Air India Japan-based ANA, Japan Airlines and Korean Air.

Virgin Atlantic, which does not operate Boeing 777s, said it has not made any cancellations or aircraft type changes.

The concern over 5G in the US relates to its potential effect on aircraft altimeters, which measure altitude.

This does not have on impact on UK airports because the US uses a different frequency for 5G.

A CAA spokesman said: “There have been no reported incidents of aircraft systems being affected by 5G transmissions in UK airspace.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/b ... 96241.html
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#11 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:33 pm

What is C-band 5G? Verizon and AT&T are flipping on the switch in the US

Anyone have any experience with 5G phone service yet? :-?
My carrier is T-Mobile. They went a different route with 5G over Verizon and AT&T. T-Mobile has better coverage at the cost of speed. The article says that they will roll out their C-Band coverage next year.
It will be interesting to see if a 5G home receiver will be an option for internet. :-?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/19/tech/c-b ... index.html

(CNN Business)The next-generation of wireless technology is now even faster for 5G users in some parts of the country.

Telecom companies have rolled out 5G networks to various locations across the United States over the last few years, delivering an experience that's arguably only a notch above what 4G offers. But on Wednesday, Verizon (VZ) and AT&T (T) turned on their C-band 5G networks -- an important set of radio frequencies that will supercharge the internet as we know it.
"The impact will be that users will likely consume more data, the connection will be more robust and most likely we may see new types of applications emerging," said Dimitris Mavrakis, senior director at market research firm ABI Research. "5G is also positioned toward enterprise services, so this upgrade may push both carriers' plans to address this domain even further."

If the term C-band sounds familiar, it's likely because it's been the subject of a weeks-long fight between wireless carriers AT&T and Verizon, the Federal Aviation Agency and some airlines. AT&T and Verizon announced this week that the companies would once more delay launching C-band 5G on some towers at various airports across the country. The decision came as airlines warned of dire consequences for transportation and the overall economy over concerns that the newly-activated C-band technology could interfere with the radar altimeters that pilots use to land in low visibility conditions. (Airlines estimated 1,000 flight disruptions would occur each day following the rollout).
The telecom industry lobby group CTIA previously said the fears are unfounded since there have not been problems in 40 countries, including the UK, Australia and China, where 5G is already deployed. Even so, the last-minute delay is the latest road bump in the rollout of the much hyped technology; there's been flashy local launches with underwhelmed users, community battles over where the equipment can be installed, and conspiracies about potential related health issues.
Despite the latest issue at airports, AT&T -- which owns CNN's parent company -- and Verizon are moving forward with the C-band rollout across various cities. Here's what you should know.
What is C-band?
C-band refers to the radio airwaves that operate in a mid-band spectrum frequency (between 3.7 and 4 GHz, to be exact). It's considered the "global" frequency for 5G across the world -- most global carriers deployed 5G in this frequency band as it offers more bandwidth, which equates to a higher system capacity at higher data speeds.

Think of it like this: If 3G is a two-lane highway and 4G is six lanes, 5G turns it into 12 lanes. It'll handle this uptick in traffic and bandwidth with no lag times, allowing, hypothetically, autonomous vehicles to process all the information they need to make life-or-death decisions in the blink of an eye, or the healthcare industry to help power the next generation of telemedicine and robotic surgeries. (In 2019, a surgeon in China conducted a liver transplant on an animal from a location 30 miles away by controlling a robotic arm running on 5G. The same procedure on a 4G network would have increased the chance for mistakes).
AT&T and Verizon's previous 5G networks operated in the low-band spectrum, which tends to deliver good coverage but speeds that aren't that much more impressive than 4G. Initial deployments were based on earlier versions of the 5G standards that utilized 4G in conjunction with 5G.
AT&T and Verizon customers using a 5G-compatible phone in areas with these new airwaves will be able to, for example, stream a Netflix movie in 4K resolution or download a movie in seconds. Because 5G has zero latency, a term that refers to the time it takes for the signal to go back and forth from a phone to the network, people accessing the networks can also play data-hungry, graphics-heavy games with no hiccups, and waiting 30 minutes to download the latest version of a phone's operating system will be a thing of the past.
When the Federal Communications Commission put C-band spectrum up for auction, AT&T and Verizon were among the carriers that spent $81 billion to take advantage of the speed improvements. (T-Mobile, which also operates in the midband spectrum, also bought some C-band spectrum to use starting next year.) Verizon said its C-band speeds reaches nearly 1 gigabyte per second, about 10 times as fast as 4G LTE. If that's not obvious, it's really fast.
Who can access the new networks?
In a blog post on Wednesday, AT&T said it is introducing C-band 5G -- which it is calling its 5G+ network -- to 8 metro areas across the United States starting on Wednesday with plans to expand in more cities throughout the year.
The company said the network will work with 17 C-band capable phones, including the iPhone 12 and 13 lines, Samsung Galaxy S21 5G models and Google's Pixel 6 and Pixel 6 Pro. After downloading the latest software update on these phones, anyone in a 5G+ market will see a "5G+" at the top of the device when the network is available. AT&T subscribers with a 5G plan will be able to use the network.
Meanwhile, Verizon said in a separate blog post on Wednesday its new 5G Ultra Wideband network will be available to 100 million more people this month in over 1,700 US cities, including Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles and New York, and in more than 20 million households. The carrier will also support phones such as the 5G capable iPhones, Samsung Galaxy models and Google's Pixels. It also announced a series of plans, including an unlimited 5G mobile and home internet plan, that will be required to access the new network. A "5G UW" indicator will appear on the top right corner of the device when a 5G phone on one of the plans is detected on the network.
The takeaways
While C-band 5G availability will appeal to anyone who currently owns a 5G-capable smartphone, the rollout won't impact the average consumer to start. However, it'll set in motion a broader rollout that could propel the 5G industry forward even more.
Still, it will need to work through the concerns with airlines and the FAA over safety. The Biden administration said on Tuesday it is actively talking with the FAA, Federal Communications Commission, wireless carriers, airlines and aircraft equipment manufacturers to find a solution that will still allow the rollout without sacrificing the safety of flights.
"The reason carriers wanted to get these airwaves out there is because they give them a huge amount of new capacity for cellular traffic," said Bill Menezes, a director at market research firm Gartner.
And there's a decent incentive for consumers, too. "The hope is that full-throttle 5G, like these new airwaves will help provide, will be light years faster than the Wi-Fi you usually get at airports," Menezes said. "So waiting for a flight or flight delays might be less painful if you can more readily stream better interactive games or 4K videos at full quality."

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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#12 Post by Boac » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:37 am

TGG wrote:Boac wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:53 pm
Maybe that is the answer? Screen the signals.
I fear the 'pith' I was taking went unnoticed :))

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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#13 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:06 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:37 am
TGG wrote:Boac wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:53 pm
Maybe that is the answer? Screen the signals.
I fear the 'pith' I was taking went unnoticed :))
Sorry, Boac, I am in one of those " ve haf no sense of humour" phases at the moment. So, woosh, it went straight over my head! ;)))

Anyway I am smiling now...
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#14 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:33 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:06 pm
Boac wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:37 am
TGG wrote:Boac wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:53 pm
Maybe that is the answer? Screen the signals.
I fear the 'pith' I was taking went unnoticed :))
Sorry, Boac, I am in one of those " ve haf no sense of humour" phases at the moment. So, woosh, it went straight over my head! ;)))

Anyway I am smiling now.
.. but just don't get me going on the Mag2True issue... ;)))

"there are better ways of navigating now. For professional pilots flying modern aircraft, really to be history, but the process of agreeing – globally – when and how to conduct the transition to a True North heading reference has been slow. Getting all the world’s nations to agree to synchronise such an exercise is much more an effort of political and dministrative will than a technical challenge.If you have already been confused by the above description of the inconsistencies in using the Earth’s wandering magnetic field as a heading reference, you are likely to find that when you consider instead the modern alternatives, they sound comparatively simple – even if the enabling technology is sophisticated..." - David Learmount
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#15 Post by Ex-Ascot » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:17 pm

Is it proven that this 5G has an affect on the rad alts. There is still a fuss about not having your mobile in flight mode. I have used mine from the flight deck in flight and never had a problem. Air Bots will not even allow you to have it in flight mode it has to be off. No inflight entertainment and no watching movies on your phone. An aside but no inflight refreshments either. Or food you just get a small bottle of water because of Covid. Why? To find an excuse to save money.
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#16 Post by Boac » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:48 pm

TGG wrote:but just don't get me going on the Mag2True issue
OK I won't, as long as you realise it is not quite as simple as your extract suggests.

In the years I flew the 737 3/4/5 there was a consistent error in magnetic heading on all aircraft of 3 degrees due to a var database not being updated for the INS.

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#17 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:58 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:48 pm
TGG wrote:but just don't get me going on the Mag2True issue
OK I won't, as long as you realise it is not quite as simple as your extract suggests.

A bit like life then! ;)))

In the years I flew the 737 3/4/5 there was a consistent error in magnetic heading on all aircraft of 3 degrees due to a var database not being updated for the INS.

GIGO - Garbage in, garbage out!
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#18 Post by Woody » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:03 pm

Steady stream of 777’s being operated by BA towards the US today including flights to JFK and LAX, in fact the only cancellation that I can see is to Nashville and that was due to be a 787.
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#19 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:22 pm

Fix it, no finger pointing.

https://www.flyingmag.com/5g-solution-m ... r-pointing

The French can teach us something.

https://www.flyingmag.com/french-airpor ... he-5g-mess

According to the FAA, there are several differences in the way it’s done in France including:
Frequencies have a different proximity to aviation equipment frequencies.
5G power levels are lower. In the U.S., the planned temporary lower 5G power levels are still 2.5 times higher than in France.
Antennas are placed differently in relation to airfields.
The angles of 5G tower antennas are tilted downward to reduce potential interference with aircraft equipment.
Airport buffer zones are larger, providing protection during the final 96 seconds of flight. The U.S. temporary buffer zones around 50 airports offer only 20 seconds of protected flight time.
In Japan, wireless carriers are not allowed to install base stations that use certain frequencies near airport flight paths, according to Nikkei. That nation has reported no incidents where 5G has interfered with altimeters.
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Re: Airlines warn of 5G flight disruption

#20 Post by Woody » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:34 pm

Nigel explains it all :((

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