Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

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Capetonian

Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#1 Post by Capetonian » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:11 pm

I am about to take up, on behalf of friends, battle with Egyptair.

I am trying to establish whether the delay, which caused them to arrive at LHR 24 hours late, is covered under the above.

According to the CAA website :
The information on this page only applies to flights covered by EU law. These must be either:
departing from an EU airport and operated by any airline
or
arriving at an EU airport and operated by an EU airline


That being the case, it would appear that the following journey might give rise to a valid compensation claim :
LHR - MS - CAI - MS - JNB - BA - CPT - BA - JNB - MS - CAI - MS - LHR
The delay was on the return leg.
The carrier whose flight was delayed was BA - an EU carrier but operated in ZA by a local franchise operator.
The ticketing carrier, and the one providing the long haul transportation was a non-EU carrier.

The passengers were ticketed through from origin to destination on one ticket and one PNR, with transfers in both directions at CAI and JNB which were compliant with Minimum Connection Times.

On the return leg, the BA flight from CPT - JNB was delayed for technical reasons causing them to miss the JNB-CAI-LHR. Egyptair said it was BA's problem as the delivering carrier (correct) and refused to offer any help. The BA offices at JNB were closed. The passengers booked and paid for their own overnight accommodation and were rerouted the next day, arriving in LON 24 hours later than scheduled.

This would give rise to compensation, as it was a long haul (>3500km) :
For delays of more than four hours, you can claim €600


What is unclear to me is the definition of 'the flight'. If they look at it as the CPT-JNB flight being delayed, then there is no valid claim, but in my understanding, the entire journey, i.e. CPT - LHR should be covered.

The legislation was drawn up, like everything else related to the EU, by people with limited practical experience of the industry, and is not clear on several points.

Specifically :
As the round trip journey began and ended in EU, then the reulations should apply, or can they wriggle out on the basis that the delay occurred on a flight departing from a non-EU country?
What is the definition of 'flight' in this context? Is it the delayed segment, or do they look at it on an origin to destination basis?

I have just spent some time on the 'phone with a friend who work in the relevant department of an EU carrier and from her perspective it would give rise to compensation, but the fact that the ticketing carrier and main transporter is a non-EU carrier somewhat muddies the waters.

Any ideas?

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#2 Post by Capetonian » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:35 pm

As a matter of interest, I also spent some time on the 'phone with the CAA and after much consideration and headscratching in puzzlement, they don't think it's covered as the trip on which the delay occurred is deemed to have started in ZA (in my view the round trip started in GB) and the carrier (BA/Comair) who caused the delay is non EU.

I am however going to initiate on their behalf a claim against BA, who caused the delay, and who failed miserably in their duty of care to the passengers by not having anyone to assist when they arrive late in JNB, along with another 20 or so passengers who were all going to miss connections, and Egyptair as the ticketing carrier, even if not the guilty party, but they were singularly unhelpful.

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#3 Post by Capetonian » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:37 pm

BA have responded to this one as expected, miserably, by passing the buck to their South African franchise operator, who have offered to pay the out of pocket expenses. I shall post the correspondence in due course, but here follows a success story.

A friend had a 9 hour delay on a flight from ZA-GB and I suggested she claimed the €600 compensation, which she did filling in their on line form.

Response :
Dear Mrs. xxxx

Thank you for your message to Customer Care regarding your recent experience with (major EU carrier -not BA) . Please accept our sincere apologies for the inconvenience you mention.

According to our records, flight XX123 was delayed as a result of the late arrival of the aircraft due to technical problems on the previous route.

We fully accept that any disruption to a planned journey is a major frustration to our customers and of course is equally frustrating towards our own aim to provide passengers with the reliable service they demand, deserve and are accustomed to.

At the same time our first responsibility must always be the safety of our passengers and crew, which is a responsibility we would never avoid. It goes without saying that we would never consider operating a flight where passenger or crew safety would, in any way, be compromised in order to remain punctual.

On the other hand, I am sorry to learn that you were unable to travel as planned due to the delayed arrival of your inbound flight.

I recognise and sincerely regret the inconvenience that this must have caused you and offer my sincere apologies.

May I clarify that airports publish official minimum transfer times for passengers making flight connections. This affords the time necessary for baggage transfer and for passengers to pass through security, board the aircraft and still allow the crew to carry out final checks and to meet their scheduled departure time.

Having carefully reviewed your request and taking into consideration the inconvenience caused, this is a situation where we offer compensation therefore we have the pleasure to compensate you either the equivalent of 300 Euro in cash or alternatively, a travel voucher for the equivalent of 400 Euro. This voucher is valid for 12 months from the date of issue and can be used towards the purchase of a ticket for travel on xxxxxxx and/ or xxxxxxxx Air Lines marketed flights. It can also be transferred only once to another person.

In case you opt for the cash compensation, I would be grateful if you forward us your local south African bank details as follows: 1) Account holder name /2) Bank name /3) Account number/ 4) Branch code number. Upon receipt of your preference, via the link at the top of this e mail or our Website (link removed), we will revert to you shortly. Please quote above reference xxxxxxxxxx

Once again, please accept our renewed apologies. I sincerely hope your next journey with us will be to your entire satisfaction.

Thank you for placing your trust in xxxxxxxx. We look forward to hearing from you soon.

Yours sincerely,
xxxxx
Customer Care Executive
Africa Middle East


Which is all very well but doesn't satisfy the amount of compensation due, so next step was this letter which I wrote on her behalf :

Dear xxxxxxx

Thank you for your response to my claim for compensation.

I am not accepting this offer since under EC regulation EU 261/2004 I am entitled to compensation of EUR600 for a flight exceeding 3500km and a delay of greater than 4 hours.

The courts have determined that a technical delay is neither an extraordinary circumstance, nor is it outside the control of the carrier. If you consider that you have grounds for refusing to pay this amount, please let me have a detailed response with your reasons for refusing to pay. I will then take appropriate legal action.

Failing that, I expect payment within 14 days of this letter, and the payment should be made to the original FoP for the ticket, this being credit card ........ etc.

Yours faithfully


Result :

They have capitulated ! I just got an e-mail from them saying they have “reviewed the case” and are offering €600 cash or a €800 travel voucher.
Thanks so much, I owe you big time!

It pays - literally - to complain in the correct manner.

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#4 Post by Capetonian » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:54 am

ALISON
As we now have a SLF forum, I suggest that this thread might sit more comfortably there.
Thank you.

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Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#5 Post by admin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:13 am

Thank you for drawing it to my attention Capetonian. Now moved as requested. :-h

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Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#6 Post by ian16th » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:53 am

It pays - literally - to complain in the correct manner.

And not be cowed by 'authority'! Their 1st offer is just a negotiation starting point.

When we last moved house, we had significant damage done to our goods and chattels.

The 1st offer from the insurance company was R4,036.00

The 4th offer, that was the one I accepted after significant negotiation was R13,950.75

Being competent to write a letter is also significant, as my rejection of the 1st offer that I Rx'd:

Rejection of Your Settlement Proposal


This is to inform you of my rejection of your utterly inadequate Settlement Proposal of 31st July 2013.

I am unable to understand how you can make any sort of accurate offer, without a qualified Insurance Assessor being on site to assess the damage and to recommend and oversee suitable repairers of such items as an antique a Lloyd Loom chair and a Simmons mattress.

I must point out that my goods were valued and assessed by an independent agent from Inventory & Risks Survey (Pty) Ltd, who noted damage that existed prior to my move.

Your rejection of some items as 'pre-existing old marks & scratches' is analogous to accusing me of Insurance Fraud. This I take great exception to.

As for your rejections on the grounds that the discrepancies were not noted at the time of delivery. At 'the time of delivery' the containers were signed for. Stuttafords returned, days later, to complete the unpacking, at this time discrepancies and damage was discovered. My wife and I did not unpack any containers as Stuttafords informed me any such action by us would invalidate our insurance with you.

I request that without delay, you have a professional insurance assessor make an appointment with me, to arrive on site to consider my claim, and that you follow proper insurance practice in promptly resolving of this matter, thereby negating any prospect of me having to escalate this matter to the Ombudsman of Short-term Insurance.


They quickly learn that they are not dealing with an ignorant fool.

I didn't need to go to the Ombudsman, but I was so pissed off by the original offer and attitude that I would have done.
Cynicism improves with age

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#7 Post by Capetonian » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:16 pm

BA's response to the concern raised in my original posting has been, to be kind, less than impressive. They have washed their hands of the matter on the basis that BA flights in ZA are not operated by BA - which is technically correct, but an immoral stance.

I wrote on behalf of the passengers to BA CS in the UK (which means of course it's dealt with my someone in Bangalore or wherever, but at least they sign themselves with Indian names and not fake British names).

BA wrote back and simply said :
"BA6426 ......... was not operated by British Airways, Kindly contact Comair in Johannesburg."

Given that the flight which caused the problem was a BA flight, operated by an aircraft in BA livery, albeit with a ZS registration, it is unreasonable to expect a customer to understand that this is franchise operation for which BA takes no responsibility. A pretty despicable attitude really, even if the claim under EU261/2004 was spurious and no more than a try-on really.

Flight BA6426 from CPT to JNB was delayed due to a technical problem, causing me to miss the MS connection at 2145 to CAI and onwards to LHR. These flights were ticketed and priced together, with MCTs respected at both connection points.

Upon landing at O.R Tambo we ............. missed the MS flight , distressingly leaving me stranded in a city that I do not know ............, particularly given the dangerous reputation of Johannesburg.

I have been advised that the BA check-in agent at Cape Town should have tagged our bags to London, .......... so this would appear to be a further act of incompetence or negligence by BA. If this had been done, I would possibly not have missed the flight.

Under EU Regulation (EC) 261/2004 Article 9, I should have been offered assistance, including accommodation, meals and transport. Regardless of regulations, I would consider this a matter of decent business practice and courtesy.

Despite myself and others with connecting flights making the cabin staff aware of our concerns we were not helped by BA ground staff to assist us to our connection nor even to advise us what to do next. I understand that BA are supposed to have a presence at JNB International until 2200 and would have expected that where connecting passengers are delayed for reasons attributable to BA, this would be adhered to as a minimum, if not extended.

The BA desk was closed , despite the airline knowing full well that they had caused around 30 people to be delayed and possibly miss their flights. There was no 24 hour BA help line to call so we were left with no way of getting any information on what to do next.

As no one from BA was present, nor was there any telephone support, I was told by an employee of the airport that the BA desk opened at 0430 and I should come back then. This was at about 2215.

Consequently in addition to my out of pocket expenses I am claiming €600 compensation in accordance with EU 261/2004 on the following grounds :

A technical delay is not classed as 'extraordinary circumstances' nor is it beyond the control of the airline. (Precedent : 'Huzar vs Jet2' stating that airlines can no longer claim technical faults as extraordinary circumstances, so must pay out compensation for flight delays of longer than three hours.)

The delay was 17 hours on a flight exceeding 3500 km.

My round trip journey began and ended in the EU.

British Airways is an EU airline and even if operating in this case as a domestic segment, I expect the same standards to be delivered globally by 'The World's Favourite Airline'.

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#8 Post by Capetonian » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:08 am

.... Result.
Compensation paid.

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Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#9 Post by ian16th » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:01 am

Cape

Well done, but you shouldn't have had all this problem. Too many ignorant people with less capabillity in the use of English, don't get what they are due.
Cynicism improves with age

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#10 Post by Capetonian » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:35 am

I know that Ian, but people are starting to become aware.
Also, in this case, I don't believe that they had a legal obligation to pay. only a moral and a commercial one.
Anyway we got got a bloody good breakfast out of it yesterday!

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#11 Post by Capetonian » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:57 pm

The world's best (and worst) airlines revealed http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/trave ... mance.html

Another pretty meaningless survey but maybe of some interest.

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#12 Post by Capetonian » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:57 pm

I have just heard from a friend who was denied boarding due to overbooking by Iberia on a short EU flight and consequently arrived home 6 hours late. Here's my reply to him.

Regarding your flight, under EU261/2004 if you arrive more than 3 hours late at your final destination, you are entitled to compensation. It’s tiered based on distance and for an intra-EU flight up to 1500 km it’s €250. They are also supposed to give you a voucher for food and drink appropriate to the time of day and length of delay, plus phone call etc.

You may be able to claim on Iberia’s website
http://www.iberia.com/web/program.do?menuId=CEATCL
or failing that by writing to their (so-called) customer services department in Madrid. If that fails there is a claim procedure via an enforcement body, and in my experience with Iberia you will probably have to go that route. I don’t know if your local IB ticket office will be able to deal with this for you, it’s probably a handling agent and they’ll use that as an excuse. They operate by ignoring complaints until they go away. Unfortunately when they tried that with me they picked the wrong person!

They are also supposed to notify you of your rights in the event of substantial delay/denied boarding but they usually ‘forget’.

I can deal with this for you. I am getting quite good at it and have extracted 9 x €600 for other people in the last few months from various airlines for delays and denied boarding.

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Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#13 Post by ian16th » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:32 pm

Capetonian wrote:I can deal with this for you. I am getting quite good at it and have extracted 9 x €600 for other people in the last few months from various airlines for delays and denied boarding.


Have you thought about taking a commission and doing this full time?

Rather like the RAF Leaches Lawyers her in SA.
Cynicism improves with age

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#14 Post by Capetonian » Thu May 12, 2016 7:02 am

I had a success with BA for a friend who who was victim of overbooking on a CPT LHR a few weeks ago. They gave him a £250 card and a night in a hotel. He wrote and claimed the balance(to make up €600) and was told that he had no further entitlement. On receipt of another letter they 'reviewed' the case and have now paid the balance due.

The Iberia saga drags on. They gave my friend a 'voucher' for denied boarding for unspecified value (later found out it was €125) which he was told he could 'exchange' at a local Iberia office. He went to the Iberia 'office' at his nearest airport to be told that 'we are a handling agent and not an Iberia office and therefore can't deal with it. You have to go to Madrid.'
Correspondence from Madrid suggests paying him another €125 (thus €250) to close the case.
They are arguing that it was only a domestic EU segment that was affected, whereas I am arguing that his journey was a continuous through fare and the ticket was for a journey from Mexico into the EU and thus >3500 km and eligible for €600.
I hate Iberia and will fight this one on principle.

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#15 Post by Capetonian » Mon May 16, 2016 3:25 pm

II am helping a friend of mine with a claim against FlyMayBe. Her flight was 'delayed' - actually consolidated - and when she asked about compensation under EU261/2004 was told that 'it only applies to flights within the EU.'

This was a UK domestic flight and as such, unless the UK has already, without my knowledge, extricated itself from the EU, is a flight within the EU.

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#16 Post by Capetonian » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:23 pm

I was on a delayed EZY flight on Saturday, arriving nearly 4 hours late. The information regarding the delay, and the service at the airport, were not up to standard, but to give credit where it is due, I filled in the very simple on-line compensation claim form on their site on Monday, and have just had the following email :
Dear Mr .............

I’m very sorry for any inconvenience we may have caused you following the disruption to your flight..

Our aim is to operate all our flights safely and on time. We do all we possibly can to minimise disruption but unfortunately on some occasions we’re unable to keep to our schedule.

The compensation rules set by the EU clearly state that if the disruption is within our control you are entitled to compensation and if it considered 'extraordinary' then no compensation is payable.

Having checked the details of your flight, I can confirm that the reason for your disruption was due to crew issue. This event is classified as non-extraordinary under EC Regulation 261/2004 and you will therefore be entitled to a compensation of 250 EUR per passenger (IE 215.62 GBP per passenger).

We'll send you a cheque of 215.62 GBP and this should be with you within 21 days from today.

More information including your 'notice of rights' and the full policy is available on our website:

http://www.easyjet.com/en/help/at-the-a ... cellations

Once again I would like to apologise for the inconvenience caused and hope to welcome you on board again soon.

Yours sincerely

xxxxx
easyJet Customer Services


This contrasts with the protracted battles I have had, and won, with (amongst others), KLM, Air France, RyanAir, BA, and SAA, on behalf of other people.

Well done easyJet.

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Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#17 Post by unifoxos » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:09 pm

I had to claim for a 24 hr delay on a BA flight NAS-LHR earlier this year. Filled in the on-line form on the Sunday after getting home, got a reply on the Monday accepting responsibility and advising they would be sending EUR 1200 for the two of us and got the cheque a few days later. I can't complain at all, though SWMBO is still arguing with TOM over a delay on a flight a year ago.
Sent from my tatty old Windoze PC.

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#18 Post by Capetonian » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:42 am

A friend of mine was recently delayed about 4 hours on a LHR-CPT with AF via CDG.
One well-worded email to AF Customer Care and this is the result.
Perhaps airlines are realising that passengers are aware of their rights, and that it can be more cost effective to pay than to fight.

Our reference: xxxxxxx

Dear xxxxxxx

Thank you for your e-mail xxxxxx with regard to your delayed flight AFxxxx from Paris to Cape Town on xx December 2016. At the outset, I am sorry to learn that you were unable to travel as planned.

Per our records, I note this flight was delayed due to operational reasons. As a result, you arrived at Cape Town International Airport with a delay. Whilst I do acknowledge and realise the impact these situations have on the schedule of our passengers, I offer my sincere apologies for the inconvenience you encountered during your travel.

In line with EC Regulation 261/2004, this is indeed a situation where I am pleased to offer you compensation. You may choose between GBP 512 (equivalent to EUR 600) in cash or a non-refundable travel voucher of higher amount GBP 683 (equivalent to EUR 800) for future travel on Air France, KLM or Delta Air Lines which is valid for one year. I have issued the voucher for the higher amount, which can be refunded through the Air France Refunds Department. The details and the terms and conditions of travel voucher will follow in a separate e-mail.

Moreover, I regret to learn from your message that you had to spend money to make an overseas phone call to your family and also take a costly taxi from the airport instead of your family picking you up due to this disruption. We do understand your disappointment and would like to apologise for the additional stress and inconveniences that you experienced, in an already very difficult time for you

I trust the resolution provided is to your entire satisfaction on this occasion and trust when next we have the pleasure of welcoming you on-board our flights, you will find everything to your entire satisfaction. We value your continued patronage with us.

Yours sincerely,

xxxxxxx
Customer Care Europe

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#19 Post by Capetonian » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:32 am

The UK CAA have ruled that airlines cannot slime out of their obligation to pay compensation for a delay on a connecting journey.

The airlines have argued that where the delay occurs on a short haul segment, the compensation is based on the length of that segment, e.g. €250.

The CAA have ruled that where the segment forms part of a connection, compensation is due based on the length of the flight from origin to destination, and not point to point, e.g. €600.

There are two 'caveats' in this. It is only a connection if it is ticketed on one ticket. People who buy two separate tickets, to undercut a published fare for example, will not be covered.
Nor, if the break of journey at the connect point is >24 hours as chosen by the passenger, will it be considered a connection, as >24 hours is a stopover, not a connection.


..... the UK aviation regulator has now begun legal action against American Airlines, Emirates, Etihad Airways, Singapore Airlines and Turkish Airlines

The five firms wriggle out of the payments by treating connecting journeys as two separate flights rather than just one.

They argue that if the second flight takes off outside the EU the law does not apply.

For example, holidaymakers who travel to Australia via Bangkok, Dubai, Hong Kong or Singapore could be missing out.

The CAA says it should not matter which leg of the journey was delayed. The law states that if a passenger has booked one ticket with an airline and arrives at the last airport named on that ticket more than three hours late, they can claim money back.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -each.html

Capetonian

Re: Question about EU261/2004 delay compensation.

#20 Post by Capetonian » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:27 pm

I have just won EU261/2004 compensation from LH for a delayed arrival of 12 hours into CPT resulting from a missed connection in FRA which was down to a combination of poor ground handling, lack of information, a rolling delay on the operating aircraft, and WX. I also had to claim for a downgrading since the flight they rebooked me on did not offer Premium Economy.

Every inch of this was a battle, which made me more determined to follow through and get the full amount. After they stonewalled me by ignoring correspondence and taking no action on phone calls, they then started phoning me to tell me I was 'not entitled to claim' as the delay was due to WX. I was able to prove otherwise and issued summons in the UK County Court. To my surprise, they didn't back down and said they'd have their lawyers defend the case, which suited me fine as I would have enjoyed being up against a smart lawyer.

At the last minute, they offered to settle in full (€600 + costs) out of court but that left the downgrading, for which they offered an amount which was much lower than I had calculated.

An email as follows did the trick :

As I mentioned to you when we spoke I disagree with the calculation of £164 for the downgrading and I am not accepting this as a full and final settlement.

I will forward you my own calculations and reasons for believing that theirs are incorrect, and I have been frustrated in my efforts to reach them to discuss this, which I am happy to do having spent many years working in the airline industry including in pricing and tarification.

I would also appreciate Lufthansa's breakdown as to how they reached this figure.


and they have now offered me an amount very close to my calculation. I wasn't really interested in the money, it was a matter of principle that I wouldn't let them try to get away with it. Once they realised that I could, and would, fight it, they coughed up. I find it distressing and disturbing that people who don't have the ability and resources to defend themselves are taken advantage of. I suppose life is like that.

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