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Humans don't decide what, or who, is dead. God does

God can't sign death certificates due to slight problem of non-existance

rgbrock1 wrote: You mean like my first son who was 2 months premature and weighed all of 4.7 lbs. at birth?

No, I don't mean like your son - I mean it's possible to keep alive babies who weigh less than a kilo even, and sometimes they live their lives happily ever after. Sometimes.

What I mean, is that if it were up to God, these babies would mostly die, and it's the people and medical science who decides who will live and for how long.
Which is what your question was - who will decide. People do.

As much as I respect you, my friend, putting a dollar amount on the life of a human being - assuming that is what your underlying definition is above - is despicable.

Please don't read it that way. I only discovered the cost after my father's death, and it never played into the mix of decisions, which Mom made, not me. My question is when it is clear that a human life is at its end, and there is close to zero hope for recovery - what level of resources do we devote to prolonging a life that is clearly over in any meaningful sense? A million or two? Why? We can't afford that, and because it mostly comes from the government, it's an unsustainable burden on everyone.

what level of resources do we devote to prolonging a life that is clearly over in any meaningful sense?

A relative of my wife, very aged, suffering dementia and Parkinson's, was taken off to hospital and given a new prosthetic knee joint which his doctor thought would be a good idea. He couldn't walk beforehand and couldn't walk much after, and they forgot his Parkinson's medication while in hospital: he came out in a pitiful state and didn't live long. A perfect example of an utter waste of money.

Keep comfortable and pain-free and reasonably happy: that's enough.

An associated question:

As a couple, or as the widow/widower, at what point do you separate or open your accounts?

A husband, who typically pre-deceases his spouse, may be the lead name in most financial transactions - banking, credit card, utilities etc. When he dies the survivor can be in severe difficulties unscrambling the accounts. Or as the widow/widower, at what point do you open your accounts to your heir?

In one case, a friend who is still living, was casevaced off a cruise ship. His wife was with him. All credit cards, insurances etc were in his name. The hospital would not move until insurance and credit were confirmed. The insurance and credit card companie would not move until they had spoken with the principal party. He was unconscious and unable to communicate.

My wife's mother is 91. Only very recently did she give a key to her son who lives 3 miles away but is frequently away working for 2 weeks at a time. Her house is secured like Fort Knox. There are no windows that open other than the small ones. Even in her own home she hid the key to her French windows and then couldn't find them!

The husband should leave a blank but signed cheque for each bank a/c. Which the spouse can cash in if he pops his clogs. Here in Spain everything is paid for by direct debit and the bastards continue to take the money for weeks, even months after you are dead.

To combat this, foreigners who have a dying feeling depart whizzo fast over the border and die there. The death is then never declared to the Spanish authorities. I'd say probably 5% - 10% of the houses in our urbanization are owned by stiffs. Including the one next to us, owned by two stiffs (formerly land-of-the-living husband and wife) and enjoyed as a vacation home by their children (themselves no spring chickens)..

Interesting comment on the news last night relating to the eight deaths in the nursing home. Not only has the nursing home in question now lost it's operating licence, apparently there are hundreds of similar nursing homes in Florida alone packed with oldies waiting to die. There was also a reference in the news to a need to significantly increase the budget for prisons in the State of Victoria here in Oz due the number of inmates in a similar condition to others in "nursing homes". Life means life, even if the medics keep them alive forever.

Is this a nasty underbelly of our 21st century society. Millions of older members just parked somewhere pending their deaths?

Alison

Thankfully, there are many places and people that care for the most vulnerable with respect and compassion - check out the likes of the Namaste Care Programme.

Sorry Karearea, but that's a silly comment. A one off hospice at the bottom end of the world does not constitute a solution to a worldwide problem. How many millions can your Namaste Care Programme accommodate? And will they do it for free indefinitely? I think not.

Alison

Alisoncc wrote:Sorry Karearea, but that's a silly comment. A one off hospice at the bottom end of the world does not constitute a solution to a worldwide problem. How many millions can your Namaste Care Programme accommodate? And will they do it for free indefinitely? I think not.

Alison

I really do think you are being the silly one here Alison as unless I am mistaken Namaste Care is not a one off hospice at the bottom of the world.

Not at all John. It may not be a single hospice at the bottom of the world, but it appears to be just another parking process for the decaying bodies of those with a religious bent. A way for their hierarchies to gain access to any stored wealth garnered over the individuals lifetime. With the individuals still ending up feeble-minded, dribbling incontinent veggies. Yuk, No thank you. Far prefer to be going up in smoke at the Crem

Namaste Care is not a solution. It's just a way of postponing the problem. All lying around waiting for judgement day, at significant expense.

Alison

Alison, I think I indicated earlier that we are not really ready to handle this issue in a universally acceptable way.

Perhaps in the future when we are all more rational and not hampered by ancient religious and tribal attitudes we can develop something. How about all citizens present themselves for a yearly fitness test where failure would incur instant consignment to a recycling facility for the production of Soylent Green?

I'm leaning with Alison on this one, if I'm getting it right. My encounters with nursing homes, what we call 'long term care', repulse me. My image is of lonely people who have lost function, waiting to die. My parents have both died while living in an assisted living facility where they had social activities, their meals were prepared and delivered to them, they lived in a nice apartment with a deck overlooking a river. The level of care provided there ranged from none to hospice, so they were able to stay there, which had become their home, to the very end.

As for me, I never want to be moved to a nursing home. I would rather be dead. And I don't want to go through the decrepitude of dementia or be a burden on others who would have to provide care for me. My life has been good. When it's no longer good I'm ready to leave it behind. I sometimes think the quick heart attack or stroke might be the best way to go. You don't see it coming, you don't worry about it, and you don't suffer through a long decline.

John Hill wrote:Perhaps in the future when we are all more rational and not hampered by ancient religious and tribal attitudes we can develop something. How about all citizens present themselves for a yearly fitness test where failure would incur instant consignment to a recycling facility for the production of Soylent Green?

John, clearly it's not Alison who's being silly. It's not about fitness, and you know that.

As Ben put it - he doesn't want to go into such institution. I wouldn't either. Would you? Who would?

Like I said I doubt we are ready yet to come up with a satisfactory answer which obviously leaves us with the need/obligation to care for the mentally and physically infirm until nature takes it's course.

True.

But let's not speak about others, let's get personal. Anybody around here who'd like to spend the final lap of their lives in a care home (even the best one possible)?

I wouldn't.

probes wrote:True.

But let's not speak about others, let's get personal. Anybody around here who'd like to spend the final lap of their lives in a care home (even the best one possible)?

I wouldn't.

Good point Probes I honestly don't think anyone wants to end up in a residential or nursing home. My mother definitely did not want to end up in a "home" but my sister had no choice in the end. My mother is now living in a private residential home that specialises in providing care for those with Altzeimers disease. She is fit and healthy, well looked after and appears to be happy. Fortunately we were able to sell the family home and contents to pay the bills. Unfortunately a lot of people are not in the same situation.

probes wrote:Anybody around here who'd like to spend the final lap of their lives in a care home (even the best one possible)?

I wouldn't.

No neither would I but there are a few things in this world that we cannot change, they are our lot and growing old is the lot of many. Most people do not end up as slobbering vegetables, most people (at least in this country) live at home until quite near their time to shuffle off.

I do not know if I will grow old, I know I certainly will not die young, I do not know my time or method of going. Although I have cancer which is now incurable I do not know if it will kill me or if something else will.

I have watched family members die at home and in nursing care establishments and my opinion is that those who chose to die at home put incredible stress on those who loved them. They were in their own bed with frequent, almost continuous, visiting relatives and friends around them but still the hospital had to send people for daily care. My wife and I are agreed that if either of us become unable to look after ourselves no way will we spend weeks at home waiting for the last breath, if there is hospital, hospice or other end of life nursing available we will avail ourselves of it.

Bob wrote:

Humans don't decide what, or who, is dead. God does

God can't sign death certificates due to slight problem of non-existance

Non-existence? And you know this how?

Good post, RGB, and good to see you posting on here again.

Most of us don't know for sure what lies in the afterlife and the what the higher powers really are. Our squabbles between faith and skepticism of faith aren't determinant. I could never accept the magic of Christ's resurrection and the virgin birth, but I've always revered his message. But the fact remains that I don't know if God is real, and I won't find out for sure in my lifetime, and after that I may or may not be in deep and eternal sleep. I've seen evidence of a spiritual dimension, like the appearance of a long dead relative accompanying my mother, her sister, just before her death.

As I don't understand and don't know what's what, my strategy is to try to be the best person I can be, to make up for my many sins, and pray for forgiveness should I come to judgment. If there is an afterlife, and there is a heaven and hell, the grace of God is my only hope.