What to do with older people unable to care for themselves.

[probes]

Many sins? Real bad ones?

Well, I've also had the experience of someone very dear to me passing away and then driving to work and back, feeling that he's sitting there, in the car. For months. So real, like a reflection on the window, I had to just look repeatedly to convince me that it wasn't so.
They say it's quite common to hallucinate when in grief.
Maybe. OFSO would agree with me there seems to be something else.

My wife and I are agreed that if either of us become unable to look after ourselves no way will we spend weeks at home waiting for the last breath, if there is hospital, hospice or other end of life nursing available we will avail ourselves of it.

True. But the issue was about unnecessarily prolonging the agony, wasn't it? Or maybe making it legal to finish it on the person's own will? Yeah, I know, all the complications and... A nurse I know had multiplex and had the necessary ready at home in time, but that was the privilege of the profession.
And, John, it's not about 'growing old' or being unable to look after oneself. It's about when some condition rips off all the personality of the person.

[probes]

Gosh, it's complicated (now and then). My Father, who is more or less ok generally, would ask something like "Did you put water in the soup?" (because he read one needs at least 2 liters of water per day to avoid constipation) and leave you stunned for a second.

And, John, it's not that I'd like to put him somewhere because he's getting old. Or maybe not getting, just there already.

[Bob]

Humans don't decide what, or who, is dead. God does

God can't sign death certificates due to slight problem of non-existance

Non-existence? And you know this how?

I don't, it was a dumbass statement, mirroring yours

[om15]

I have recently read some statistics regarding the Nazi euthanasia programme, infants, people from asylums with physical and mental illness's, palsy, polio, dementia were classed as unworthy of life and killed by the State. The method of killing was initially carried out by lethal injection of morphium-scopolamine but this was proving too costly, so the German Government developed a far cheaper method, they fed the people with a bowl of nettle soup every second day until they died of starvation.
The number of those killed by the German government under this legal euthanasia exceeded the number of German Jews gassed in the camps, and also exceeded the number of civilians that died under Allied bombing.
There are not, as far as I am aware, any memorials for the huge number of people deemed "unworthy of life" by the German Government who were killed under this programme.
The German Government also considered extending this programme to include those soldiers returning from the Russian front with multiple amputations, however due to administrative problems this was not carried out.

[Stoneboat]

It all boils down to personal choice. I don't think I could face a lingering illness knowing I'll die anyway, now that the option of doctor-assisted suicide is an option in this country, but it is a choice I don't yet have to make.

As an aside, the architect of Canada's much-vaunted medical system, St. Thomas of Hearne, wrote the thesis for his university degree on euthanasia (he was all for it.) Then he visited Hitler's Germany, saw how it worked, and changed his mind.

[Cacophonix]

Oh *f*ck*, just close your eyes and shoot them. Moral abnegation and cowardice is so much easier than love and care...

And in Ben There's case, absolute avarice...!

Caco

Oddly, Caco, we share the same outlook on this. Hurrah!

Not at all rgbrock1. I suspect Ben There, himself would be surprised how close my opinions are to his! May the Good Lord forgive me,

Caco

[Slasher]

My missus and I have an agreement - if I ever end up losing all my marbles through serious dementia then she'll shoot me painlessly in the back of the head without warning.

Problem is I'm sure she'll point the gun but probably not pull the trigger. Maybe it'll require her hiring a local hitman.

[John Hill]

That might have been the add I saw in the 'Help Wanted' last week!

[Slasher]

Uh Oh...

[Alisoncc]

The lower house of the Parliament of the State of Victoria, Oz have just passed an "Assisted Dying Bill" after 26 hours of sometimes heated debate. Lots of qualifiers, possibly to the point of being unusable, but it's a start. Why do so many religious nuts have the arrogance to believe that they, and only they, can determine when a person can die? Or that every life should be prolonged to the point of extremis just to appease their God. Freedom of religion also provides for the freedom not to have a religion or to have to adhere to their archaic beliefs.

Alison

[Pontius Navigator]

Alison, one of which is burial within 24 hours. A sensible and essential procedure amongst nomadic tribes or in hot climates but unnecessary in cold climates or proper mortuaries. It is now set in tablets of stone as a religious universal necessity.

[Alisoncc]

Local news outlets posting articles per:

Up to 40 per cent of people in aged care homes never get visitors, Aged Care Minister Ken Wyatt has told the National Press Club.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-25/aged-care-residents-suffering-from-loneliness,-ken-wyatt-says/9085782

So oldies are just being parked somewhere whilst they succumb. Sad, very sad.

Asphyxiation using an inert gas comes highly recommended as being painless, quick and effective, with few downsides. Such inert gases are used in laboratories worldwide to euthanaise animals with minimal stress, used in some poultry processing plants for the same reason, and has been recommended in some States of the US for prisoners on death row.

For those with a liking for braised aluminium, Argon, an inert gas used in it's preparation is readily available in disposable cylinders from any hardware store. Bought such a cylinder recently, quite cheap. Never know when I might need to braze some aluminum at short notice, so worth having around.

Alison
PS. No suggestion it should be used on other people, information provided for personal use only.

[John Hill]

For those with a liking for braised aluminium....

How long does it take to get the aluminium nice and tender?

[Bob]

For those with a liking for braised aluminium, Argon, an inert gas used in it's preparation is readily available in disposable cylinders from any hardware store. Bought such a cylinder recently, quite cheap. Never know when I might need to braze some aluminum at short notice, so worth having around.

Eh?, do you mean Brazing or welding?, I've not heard of inert gas being used when brazing.
Have done a bit of both and used the lumiweld rods quite succesfully on Aluminium

[Cacophonix]

Well some people suggest eating old people but I am not a fan of this practice as they are simply too stringy. My aunty Madge tasted simply disgusting so now I just tend to use the old buggers as ornaments.

My family used my uncle Bob as coffee table for a while but he wasn't much good at that, shouting when people dropped coffee on his buttocks and wobbling all the time and complaining in a way that a solid oak table wouldn't so eventually we just gave him away! It was the best thing for him and the coffee cups were always full after he had gone!



Seriously though, perhaps we should just look after and love old people. We are or will be old ourselves one day!

NOT FOR ME A YOUNGMAN’S DEATH
By Roger McGough
Not for me a youngman’s death
Not a car crash, whiplash
John Doe, DOA at A&E kind of death.
Not a gun in hand, in a far off land
IED at the roadside death
Not a slow-fade, razor blade
bloodbath in the bath, death.
Jump under a train, Kurt Cobain
bullet in the brain, death
Not a horse-riding paragliding
mountain climbing fall, death.
Motorcycle into an old stone wall
you know the kind of death, death
My nights are rarely unruly. My days
of allnight parties are over, well and truly.
No mistresses no red sports cars
no shady deals no gangland bars
no drugs no fags no rock’n’roll
Time alone has taken its toll
Not for me a youngman’s death
Not a domestic brawl, blood in the hall
knife in the chest, death.
Not a drunken binge, dirty syringe
“What a waste of a life” death.

or even better...

-PAY BACK TIME
O Lord, let me be a burden on my children
For long they’ve been a burden upon me.
May they fetch and carry, clean and scrub
And do so cheerfully.
Let them take it in turns at putting me up
Nice sunny rooms at the top of the stairs
With a walk-in bath and lift installed
At great expense…..Theirs.
Insurance against the body-blows of time
Isn’t that what having children’s all about?
To bring them up knowing that they owe you
And can’t contract out?
What is money for but to spend on their schooling?
Designer clothes, mindless hobbies, usual stuff.
Then as soon as they’re earning, off they go
Well, enough’s enough.
It’s been a blessing watching them develop
The parental pride we felt as each one grew.
But Lord, let me be a burden on my children
And on my children’s children too.         

also by Roger McGough

Caco

[Slasher]

One doesn't have to be necessarily religious to either be pro-life or anti-euthanasia. As an atheist (admittedly once rabid) I believe all religious nuts of whatever creed tend to lower the value of lives because of the supposed rewards after death.

All this talk of third parties bumping off oldies in pain is simply imposed suicide by other means. Quite arrogant really but then the talking monkey specie is exactly that by essence.

Let the aged who want to kill themselves in somehow trying to gain some weird form of "dignity" make up their own minds. There's sleeping pill overdoses, lethal injection or jumping off a cliff. Same result in all cases - a coward's death.

[bbvideo=560,315]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4gO7uemm6Yo[/bbvideo]

[Magnus]

Not so sure it's cowardice, Slasher. One day, you or I might look at the burden we're imposing on kith and kin, who have their own families and problems &c., and decide that it's unfair to keep imposing on them when we're really contributing nothing to their lives. Our presence? It'll be missed for a while, but could be eating at their time and love which would be better spent on newer generations. The dosh in our property and stocks would be of more benefit.

[Slasher]

I see your POV Magnus, but if one is at that point then it's highly unlikely one will still be in possession of one's marbles. What then? Who decides it's better to kill the problem than let it live?

Those who are old, still in possession of their faculties and feel the same way you do, well that's their choice. Maybe I've been sheltered, but those aged who had nothing left fought for life right up to the last minute. To me that's dying with honor.

As I indirectly inferred earlier if its written in one's will that one wants to be bumped off if one becomes a burden that's fine. It's a when a third party unilaterally decides to murder the oldie that I'll never condone.

[Magnus]

Your last sentence, Slasher, is 100% on the money. However, I've seen marbles trickling away slowly, with long periods of lucidity, and I'd hope that in that situation I'd have the guts in a lucid time to think that I should act before it's too late.

[probes]

Yeah, I used to think things get difficult when one's chained to some medical device - never thought it could be quite as bad when someone has to keep an eye on you 24/7 to make sure you've not fallen or passed out... no privacy, no sleep for both. Well, no real privacy and no real sleep.
And it's quite scary to discover you're the one who has to decide if it's time to call the ambulance, or maybe not yet... this time.

For now it's somewhat more stable and better, so fingers crossed.
Life's ... well, varied?