BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

[Woody]

Post Brexit, when all the Poles go home, who will that be?

We’ll still have the Welsh

[G-CPTN]

I know my place.

[OFSO]

Everybody I know here in the UK looked up to the Poles as excellent workers. In fact, if you could get one doing a job for you the neighbood would be in awe of you. When Karl was painting our house front (12 hrs a day, no lunch break, cleaned up every night) people were trying to poach him away from us. Great guys.

[Capetonian]

If the Poles were to.leave the UK, it would be a far worse place for their departure.

Most of them are head and shoulders ahead of the average Brit in terms of education, intellect, motivation and morals.

[G-CPTN]

My hairdresser is a Polish 'girl' (though she has two young children born in England to a Polish father - who works at the local factory (the largest employer in the district)).
She is the only person that I will now allow to cut my hair - and I don't attempt to tell her how to do it (and I refuse to 'look' when she offers the mirror. as I know it will be just right).

[om15]

The small market town in north Dorset near my home has a 20% population of Polish workers, attracted by the low wages provided working in disgusting agricultural mini factories, mushrooms, chickens and so on. This is very beneficial for the community, they do work that the local socialist supporting youth are too lazy and unqualified to do and pay tax and the hard working guests support the local economy with their purchases of cigarettes and white lightning cider.
The only downside is that it has put pressure on accommodation and is causing problems for young people to find flats and so on, however this is transitory and in five years there might well be reversal of this influx if work appears somewhere else.
This is fine, they don't build noisy mosques, blow us up, screw our social care systems, groom our children, supply drugs on an industrial scale or expect us to change our ways to accommodate them, so I don't think that people supporting Brexit have in fact taken Polish visitors into consideration when voting to leave the EU, it is really not an issue.

[Jetex Jim]

The small market town in north Dorset near my home has a 20% population of Polish workers, attracted by the low wages provided working in disgusting agricultural mini factories, mushrooms, chickens and so on. This is very beneficial for the community, they do work that the local socialist supporting youth are too lazy and unqualified to do and pay tax and the hard working guests support the local economy with their purchases of cigarettes and white lightning cider.
The only downside is that it has put pressure on accommodation and is causing problems for young people to find flats and so on, however this is transitory and in five years there might well be reversal of this influx if work appears somewhere else.
This is fine, they don't build noisy mosques, blow us up, screw our social care systems, groom our children, supply drugs on an industrial scale or expect us to change our ways to accommodate them, so I don't think that people supporting Brexit have in fact taken Polish visitors into consideration when voting to leave the EU, it is really not an issue.

No question the Poles are skilled and hardworking. My point was that they provide the necessary underclass for the locals to feel superior to. (As rather demonstrate by your choice of words)

As long has the working class Brit has a 'Johnny Foreigner' to feel superior to he feels a kinship with the real ruling class.

[OFSO]

I see a few posts here that come under the Project Fear category. Will someone explain to me why the Poles will have to leave the UK after Brexit. Please quote the law applicable. (The Daily Mail and Daily Express and Guardian do not come into this category.)

[Jetex Jim]

I see a few posts here that come under the Project Fear category. Will someone explain to me why the Poles will have to leave the UK after Brexit. Please quote the law applicable. (The Daily Mail and Daily Express and Guardian do not come into this category.)

Perhaps the Poles will be allowed to stay, perhaps not. But I'd confidently wager that many who voted for Brexit did so on the assumption that all europeans would have to leave Britain if Britain left the EU.

I even had one Brexit voter telling me she voted Leave because she was sick of all the Russians she was encountering in the local area, Maidstone. My suggestion that I didn't think Russia was part of the EU seemed to go over her head.

[om15]

What on earth is a working class Brit?
I think that "class" disappeared in the 1960s, whatever ones perception of class might be it certainly has no bearing on a large (majority) part of the population choosing to return democracy and decision making to Great Britain.

JJ, I think that you may have been in Bavaria for too long, do you have a box set of Wheel Tappers and Shunters DVDs to while away the long winter Teutonic evenings?

Mrs May has quite clearly and without any ambiguity whatsoever stated that all EU residents currently living and working in the UK can fill in a small piece of paper and continue to live here, why might people chose to not understand that, and why might those who choose to remain fabricate that Brexiteers are fixated on foreigners living here.

[Jetex Jim]

Mrs May has quite clearly and without any ambiguity whatsoever stated that all EU residents currently living and working in the UK can fill in a small piece of paper and continue to live here, why might people chose to not understand that, and why might those who choose to remain fabricate that Brexiteers are fixated on foreigners living here.

What May has said since the vote was taken is quite different to what was left unstated at the time of the referendum.

As I've said before, during the campaign phase no one knew the specifics of what kind of a situation the UK would find itself in the event of a Leave vote. And certainly there were no clear statements about current EU residents being allowed to stay.

Such ambiguity was why Leave was successful, Brexit could always be all things to all men.

Of course, the problems May is having now find their roots in that ambiguous Brexit promise. Which is why we are seeing headlines like this one. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -amendment

Tory, Labour and SNP members say they will table a “killer” amendment in favour of a public vote. The amendment, if passed, will state that acceptance of the prime minister’s deal must be dependent on a public vote taking place beforehand, in which people would be offered the choice of leaving on the terms of that deal, or staying in the EU.

[OFSO]

In every European country I know, non-EU workers get residence and work permits. In fact in Spain even EU citizens need work permits. So why should the UK be any different ?

[om15]

I have just read an article in the Guardian this morning, an interview with Chris Tarrant, (broadcaster, tv host, millionaire), he was a remain supporter at the time of the referendum, but has since changed his mind, it would be interesting to know how many others are like him in this respect

As for Brexit, he has done a U-turn. “I voted to remain, and two years on I’m now a staunch Brexiteer.” Why? “I’m so utterly sickened by the European elite creaming it off on a Blatter scale. I think the sooner we get out, the better. We will survive and carry on very nicely because we’re British. I’ve been appalled by the way they’ve treated us. All this stuff about: we’re going to teach you a lesson.”
After making a programme about the second world war, does he not worry about a rise in British nationalism? “No, I’m very patriotic. I’m very British and I’m very pro-British, but that in no way means you therefore exterminate anybody else you meet who doesn’t come from Britain!”
Is migration an issue? He nods. “There’s a point at which we have to control our borders. The bottom line is the world is full up and the population on the planet is getting bigger and bigger and there ain’t much room any more. So, how’s it going to work? I don’t know.” It’s a rare moment of uncertainty.

[Undried Plum]

As I've said before, during the campaign phase no one knew the specifics of what kind of a situation the UK would find itself in the event of a Leave vote. And certainly there were no clear statements about current EU residents being allowed to stay.

I remember very clearly that the deal was that EU citizens who can show that they were legally resident in the UK on the day of the referendum would be given unlimited rights to stay. That seemed reasonable to me.

As others have noted in this thread, the Baltic state workers here are excellent workers and are an asset for Britain. Some of the Romanians are good too.

There is no reason why much needed foreign workers can't be given work and residence permits just as happens already with non-EU workers who are greatly needed, such a Filipino and African nurses.

There is also no reason why British businesses can't trade with overseas countries, just as happens already with non-EU countries.

[Jetex Jim]

In every European country I know, non-EU workers get residence and work permits. In fact in Spain even EU citizens need work permits. So why should the UK be any different ?

So what are you saying, that the UK government should have followed Spain's example? Why didn't it? That would be a question for the UK government then and not a matter caused inherently by the UK's membership of the EU. (To employ an EU citizen in the UK just requires getting them an NI number)

We already know that the UK didn't join the Schengen agreement. It rather seems as though the UK always had the right to control free movement but chose not to. So the EU has been demonised for what was all along UK government policy.

But by all means let's continue with the parrot cry, "Let's take back control".

[Jetex Jim]

As I've said before, during the campaign phase no one knew the specifics of what kind of a situation the UK would find itself in the event of a Leave vote. And certainly there were no clear statements about current EU residents being allowed to stay.

I remember very clearly that the deal was that EU citizens who can show that they were legally resident in the UK on the day of the referendum would be given unlimited rights to stay. That seemed reasonable to me.

As others have noted in this thread, the Baltic state workers here are excellent workers and are an asset for Britain. Some of the Romanians are good too.

There is no reason why much needed foreign workers can't be given work and residence permits just as happens already with non-EU workers who are greatly needed, such a Filipino and African nurses.

There is also no reason why British businesses can't trade with overseas countries, just as happens already with non-EU countries.

And I also recall the Breaking Point poster with Nigel Farage and the slogan, 'We must break free of the EU and take back control of our borders'.
But perhaps it was all meant ironically...

[ian16th]

It rather seems as though the UK always had the right to control free movement but chose not to.

Not if the European Court of Human Rights says so!

[Jetex Jim]

It rather seems as though the UK always had the right to control free movement but chose not to.

Not if the European Court of Human Rights says so!

BS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#Legal_basis

The Schengen Area ( /ˈʃɛŋən/, /ˈʃɛŋɡən/) is an area comprising 26 European states that have officially abolished passport and all other types of border control at their mutual borders. The area mostly functions as a single jurisdiction for international travel purposes, with a common visa policy. The area is named after the Schengen Agreement. States in the Schengen Area have strengthened border controls with non-Schengen countries.

Twenty-two of the twenty-eight European Union (EU) member states participate in the Schengen Area. Of the six EU members that are not part of the Schengen Area, four—Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, and Romania—are legally obliged to join the area, while the other two—the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom—maintain opt-outs.

[ian16th]

I'm not referring to Schengen, but the fact that the Court can stop criminals from being deported to their home countries.

[Jetex Jim]

I'm not referring to Schengen, but the fact that the Court can stop criminals from being deported to their home countries.

https://www.ft.com/content/e819d862-cb5 ... ece4e953a0

Foreign criminals should not be automatically deported if they are the sole carer for a resident child, according to an opinion from the European Court of Justice that may dent Britain’s hardline immigration policy.

Countries such as Britain should only be able to deport such people “in exceptional circumstances”, such as when there is a clear threat to public order or safety, said Maciej Szpunar, who is an advocate general at the EU’s top court.

Opinions are not binding on the court, but are usually followed in a final judgment. If the court does confirm the opinion, it would contradict the strict immigration policy of the Conservative government, that has automatically deported all non-EU foreigners who are sentenced to more than one year in prison.

One case examined by the European court involved a Moroccan woman who was sentenced to a year in jail for smuggling sim cards into prison, while living in the UK. The British government ruled that the woman — who had a British child — should be deported.

The other case considered a Colombian man living in Spain with two children — one of Spanish nationality and the other Polish — who was refused a residential permit because of his criminal record.

The ECJ, which is based in Luxembourg, has in general been flexible on controversial immigration topics, including a series of rulings that made it easier for countries to crack down on handing out benefits to new arrivals.

In October last year, the court ruled that countries such as Britain and Germany were free to clamp down on so-called “welfare tourism” and deny benefits to people who had moved from another EU state “solely” to claim them.

But when it comes to matters such as enforcing deportation, judges have been stricter in their interpretation of citizens’ rights, often ruling against governments. Earlier this week, for example, the court released a similar opinion arguing that France was wrong to imprison a woman caught heading from Belgium to the UK with a fake passport.

Countries across Europe have made deportation an integral part of their immigration policies, despite its practical and legal difficulties. Only 40 per cent of people who are ordered to leave actually end up being deported, according to figures from the European Commission.

The court will issue a final judgment on the case later this year.

Congratulations on finding such a recurrent topic to enter the debate on.