BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

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Do you think the UK leaving the European Union would be a good thing?

Poll ended at Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:51 pm

Yes
36
72%
No
14
28%
 
Total votes: 50

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Nick Riviera
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1461 Post by Nick Riviera » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:30 pm

Jetex Jim wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:18 am
Don't take my word for it, here's what the FT said on the subject.
https://www.ft.com/content/b706c2c0-a0a ... b7a9ce36e4
Shortly after Geordie Greig was appointed as the new editor of the Daily Mail this summer, John Major addressed him and other guests at a private dinner in London.

The former prime minister, who is against Brexit and who has called for a second referendum, said that Mr Greig now had “the power and the potential to change the political discourse of our country”, according to one person present.

Sir John, who is on a family holiday, was unavailable for comment. But throughout Westminster and beyond, there is a keen interest in whether the Daily Mail, a strident advocate for Brexit under outgoing editor Paul Dacre, will change when Mr Greig takes over in September.

Like Sir John, Mr Greig supported the Remain campaign ahead of the Brexit referendum and under his stewardship, the Mail on Sunday, the Daily Mail’s sister paper, has questioned the government’s Brexit strategy in its editorials.

By contrast, the Mail has firmly attacked any critics of Brexit and deplored any attempts to soften the break with the EU or delay the process.

Mr Greig’s colleagues say there is little chance that the Mail will now flip to the other side of the debate, but that there will be some changes. Mr Greig himself did not respond to requests for comment.

“There will be fewer one-sided headlines and quotes from [leading proponents of a no-deal Brexit] Jacob Rees-Mogg and Andrew Bridgen,” said one former Mail on Sunday colleague.
Nope, nothing at all there that says the Mail is changing its stance. A few mights and maybes but nothing of any substance. It even admits that the Mail on Sunday challenges the Brexit strategy occasionally but not Brexit in itself. Yet again you are making up facts to fit your agenda.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1462 Post by Jetex Jim » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:20 pm

Nick Riviera wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:30 pm
Jetex Jim wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:18 am
Don't take my word for it, here's what the FT said on the subject.
https://www.ft.com/content/b706c2c0-a0a ... b7a9ce36e4
Shortly after Geordie Greig was appointed as the new editor of the Daily Mail this summer, John Major addressed him and other guests at a private dinner in London.

The former prime minister, who is against Brexit and who has called for a second referendum, said that Mr Greig now had “the power and the potential to change the political discourse of our country”, according to one person present.

Sir John, who is on a family holiday, was unavailable for comment. But throughout Westminster and beyond, there is a keen interest in whether the Daily Mail, a strident advocate for Brexit under outgoing editor Paul Dacre, will change when Mr Greig takes over in September.

Like Sir John, Mr Greig supported the Remain campaign ahead of the Brexit referendum and under his stewardship, the Mail on Sunday, the Daily Mail’s sister paper, has questioned the government’s Brexit strategy in its editorials.

By contrast, the Mail has firmly attacked any critics of Brexit and deplored any attempts to soften the break with the EU or delay the process.

Mr Greig’s colleagues say there is little chance that the Mail will now flip to the other side of the debate, but that there will be some changes. Mr Greig himself did not respond to requests for comment.

“There will be fewer one-sided headlines and quotes from [leading proponents of a no-deal Brexit] Jacob Rees-Mogg and Andrew Bridgen,” said one former Mail on Sunday colleague.


Nope, nothing at all there that says the Mail is changing its stance. A few mights and maybes but nothing of any substance. It even admits that the Mail on Sunday challenges the Brexit strategy occasionally but not Brexit in itself. Yet again you are making up facts to fit your agenda.
Well perhaps the prospect of the Mail softening its line on Brexit is a little unlikely. The Mail has invested hugely in pro-Brexit propaganda over the years. Perhaps they'll settle on introducing a bit of balance for a change?

But I'm curious, what's this agenda you think I have?
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1463 Post by Nick Riviera » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:35 pm

Jetex Jim wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:20 pm
Nick Riviera wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:30 pm
Jetex Jim wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:18 am
Don't take my word for it, here's what the FT said on the subject.
https://www.ft.com/content/b706c2c0-a0a ... b7a9ce36e4



Nope, nothing at all there that says the Mail is changing its stance. A few mights and maybes but nothing of any substance. It even admits that the Mail on Sunday challenges the Brexit strategy occasionally but not Brexit in itself. Yet again you are making up facts to fit your agenda.
Well perhaps the prospect of the Mail softening its line on Brexit is a little unlikely. The Mail has invested hugely in pro-Brexit propaganda over the years. Perhaps they'll settle on introducing a bit of balance for a change?

But I'm curious, what's this agenda you think I have?
I'm astonished you need to ask. You quite obviously have an anti-brexit agenda. This is fine in and of itself but you insist on posting "facts" that support your view that turn out to be completely untrue.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1464 Post by Jetex Jim » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:13 am

Whatever you say Nick.
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1465 Post by Nick Riviera » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:39 pm

Jetex Jim wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:13 am
Whatever you say Nick.
Translation - "I have no defence but can't admit it."

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1466 Post by Jetex Jim » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:47 pm

Nick Riviera wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:39 pm
Jetex Jim wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:13 am
Whatever you say Nick.
Translation - "I have no defence but can't admit it."
Ok Nick.

Well I have to say that my comments about the Mail seemingly having changed its tone on Brexit were triggered by one of the (presumably regular DM readers) who suggested that the Mail was, of late, not being as 100% pro Brexit as previously. This was a comment under the article on Aaron Banks and the comment writer suggested that previously the Mail would not have carried any story that suggested any impropriety in the pro-leave campaign, and that this was how it should be. After all what about all the money that Remain spent?

After a little research I discovered that the Mail had recently had a change of editor. And I posted the FT clip.

Has the Mail changed its stance on Brexit? Not being a regular reader of the thing perhaps I should not offer a judgment but in any event an immediate full 180 on the topic would seem to be commercial suicide.

Far better for the new editor to sit astride the fence a while. Then, as the disaster continues to develop present a, "Well I never thought it was a good idea" position to the finally enlightened readership.
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1467 Post by Nick Riviera » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:13 pm

Jetex Jim wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:47 pm
Nick Riviera wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:39 pm
Jetex Jim wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:13 am
Whatever you say Nick.
Translation - "I have no defence but can't admit it."
Ok Nick.

Well I have to say that my comments about the Mail seemingly having changed its tone on Brexit were triggered by one of the (presumably regular DM readers) who suggested that the Mail was, of late, not being as 100% pro Brexit as previously. This was a comment under the article on Aaron Banks and the comment writer suggested that previously the Mail would not have carried any story that suggested any impropriety in the pro-leave campaign, and that this was how it should be. After all what about all the money that Remain spent?

After a little research I discovered that the Mail had recently had a change of editor. And I posted the FT clip.

Has the Mail changed its stance on Brexit? Not being a regular reader of the thing perhaps I should not offer a judgment but in any event an immediate full 180 on the topic would seem to be commercial suicide.

Far better for the new editor to sit astride the fence a while. Then, as the disaster continues to develop present a, "Well I never thought it was a good idea" position to the finally enlightened readership.
So, as I said, you have yet again posted a comment to suit your agenda that has no basis in fact. Thanks for confirming that.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1468 Post by AtomKraft » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:34 am

It's quite delicious, watching the UK government, as they try to deliver a result based on......democracy. it must be quite a change for them.
Wriggle, squirm and bluster they will, but Brexit will happen, or there will be big trouble.
My bet's for a no deal Brexit. The negotiations would be nearly impossible for even a competently administration.
Another forecast is that May will quit on Brexit day or shortly thereafter. It's the British way:
Declare Victory!, and leave....

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1469 Post by om15 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:45 pm

I suspect that both sides in the negotiations are so terrified of the practical, political and economic consequences of a "no deal" that there will be a deal.
The Irish problem appears to be unsolvable, but that has always been the case, the fact that there can't be a border there because it will inflame the nutters will somehow be fudged.
The hard Brexiteers will be in the difficult position of either supporting May or making way for a Corbyn led disaster, my uneducated guess is that there will be a not very acceptable deal scaping through parliament, we will end up giving the EU a shed load of cash and we won't be completely out.
There will be a decade of Tory infighting, May will actually have made the best of an impossible job but will be booted out anyway, my fear is that the hard core of remainers in the Tory party will gain power in the Tory party and fight tooth and nail to keep us tied into the EU as much as possible, voter apathy may or may not allow this to happen.

As I mentioned earlier, my fear is that influential Government Remainers will not even attempt to make a success of Brexit as a success will prove that they were wrong. Hammond, Mark Carney and the rest will definitely not allow a complete Brexit as was voted for a couple of years ago.

David Cameron, who many regard responsible for this mess, now wants to return to the front bench because "he is bored shitless", it is indicative of how low the shameless shower that govern us are that this could be even suggested.

I think that the real problem that we face at the moment is there isn't anyone on either side of the house who is remotely competent to be a leader, we have a complete generation of professional politicians, the only thing we can do is vote them out.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1470 Post by ian16th » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:16 pm

om15 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:45 pm

The Irish problem appears to be unsolvable, but that has always been the case,
As one W S Churchill once said, 'Anyone that thinks they can solve the Irish problem, doesn't understand the question!'
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1471 Post by Woody » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:51 am

There will be a decade of Tory infighting, May will actually have made the best of an impossible job but will be booted out anyway, my fear is that the hard core of remainers in the Tory party will gain power in the Tory party and fight tooth and nail to keep us tied into the EU as much as possible, voter apathy may or may not allow this to happen.
No change then :))
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1472 Post by Jetex Jim » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:23 am

Today's Telegraph includes as a newly coined word the word 'Gammon' from latest edition of the Collins dictionary.

Gammon, a person, typically middle-aged and white, with reactionary views, especially one who supports the withdrawal of Britain from the European Union.

A typical example.
Does that internet site you've started looking at comprise mostly Gammons?
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1473 Post by om15 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:31 am

It isn't a newly coined word.
The term was employed by Charles Dickens in a descriptive sense in his 1838 novel, Nicholas Nickleby, to describe a character who is burly, tough and patriotic:
"The time had been, when this burst of enthusiasm would have been cheered to the very echo; but now, the deputation received it with chilling coldness. The general impression seemed to be, that as an explanation of Mr. Gregsbury’s political conduct, it did not enter quite enough into detail; and one gentleman in the rear did not scruple to remark aloud, that, for his purpose, it savoured rather too much of a 'gammon' tendency.""The meaning of that term—gammon,' said Mr. Gregsbury, 'is unknown to me. If it means that I grow a little too fervid, or perhaps even hyperbolical, in extolling my native land, I admit the full justice of the remark. I am proud of this free and happy country. My form dilates, my eye glistens, my breast heaves, my heart swells, my bosom burns, when I call to mind her greatness and her glory."

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1474 Post by Jetex Jim » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:17 pm

Today from Dominic Raab the Brexit Secretary.
I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing. And that is one of the reasons why we have wanted to make sure we have a specific and very proximate relationship with the EU, to ensure frictionless trade at the border ... I don’t think it is a question so much of the risk of major shortages, but I think probably the average consumer might not be aware of the full extent to which the choice of goods that we have in the stores are dependent on one or two very specific trade routes.
To which Brian Cox replied
How could it possibly come as a suprise to Dominic Raab that our most important trade gateway is that which is closest geographically to our most important market?
Stewart Stevenson of the SNP added this
This is a stunning admission that shows just how clueless the Tories are about their Brexit plans.

A Tory Brexit could have a catastrophic impact on trade with the continent and leave supermarket shelves empty.

And that scenario could also mean Scottish exports, such as seafood, stuck in lorry parks at Dover rather than reaching their export markets in a timely manner.
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1475 Post by Jetex Jim » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:27 pm

Boris' brother Jo Johnson resigns and seems rather upset over the ongoing Brexit situation.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1476 Post by Cacophonix » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:33 pm

He should be! The whole thing was a **** from day one and just gets worse.

Caco

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1477 Post by Jetex Jim » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:59 pm

Brexiteer economist Patrick Minford: “You’re going to have to run [the car industry] down, in the same way we ran down the coal and steel industry. These things happen.”



It's interesting to learn from Professor Mitford that 'we ran down the coal and steel industry' I wonder if he likes the idea of running down UK's car industry?
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1478 Post by Woody » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:42 pm

It's interesting to learn from Professor Mitford that 'we ran down the coal and steel industry' I wonder if he likes the idea of running down UK's car industry?
I always thought that Thatcher was responsible.
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1479 Post by Magnus » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:06 am

All kicked off under Wilson and Callaghan who closed more pits than Thatcher. She simply continued the trend.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1480 Post by llondel » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:17 am

ian16th wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:34 pm
Magnus wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:58 am
If Major calls for a second, I'll call for a third. What does a 1-1 draw prove?
We have already had two.

Harold Wilson organised the 1st one in 1975!

The 2016 one was the second referendum on the UK's continued membership of whatever European grouping was then current.
So the decider should be in another 40 years then, got to maintain the spacing.

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