BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

A place to discuss politics and things related to Govts

Do you think the UK leaving the European Union would be a good thing?

Poll ended at Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:51 pm

Yes
36
72%
No
14
28%
 
Total votes: 50

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1481 Post by OFSO » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:31 am

Another stupid commentator said on Sky News a few minutes ago that we joined the EU to stop European wars. How people delude themselves !

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1482 Post by Jetex Jim » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:53 am

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... irst-time/
Jeremy Corbyn has met with the head of MI6 for the first time in anticipation of a snap election triggered by the collapse of the Brexit negotiations, The Telegraph has learnt.

The Labour leader recently met with Alex Younger, the Chief of the Secret Intelligence Service, during which the importance of the agency’s work and the severity of the threats facing Britain were made clear to him.
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1483 Post by Capetonian » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:01 am

Ironically, one of the biggest threats to the UK is Jeremy Corbyn

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1484 Post by Woody » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:28 am

Capetonian wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:01 am
Ironically, one of the biggest threats to the UK is Jeremy Corbyn
He didn’t even turn up for the Festival of Remberence at the Royal Albert Hall last night X(
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1485 Post by Magnus » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:09 am

I wonder whether the oleaginous little toad will show face at the Cenotaph?

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1486 Post by OFSO » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:06 pm

...not to mention Blair & Broone. In fact are not enough spikes at Traitors' Gate for all the heads I'd like to see stuck there. (Or was it on old London Bridge ?)

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1487 Post by ian16th » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:40 pm

Magnus wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:09 am
I wonder whether the oleaginous little toad will show face at the Cenotaph?
He did, wearing an ANORAK!

Shades of Foot and his donkey jacket.
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1488 Post by Magnus » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:43 pm

I unfortunately missed the programme, but the Sons of Morris called for a 2 minute silence (while I was perusing nappies), and it was pretty comprehensively observed. Stuck another few quid in the poppy appeal box, but I don't take a poppy as I wear a poppy wristband.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1489 Post by Capetonian » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:16 pm

I was at AMS airport at 1100 UK time and completely failed to remember it, however I shall observe it in my own time and manner later today.

I suppose it would be unrealistic to expect a brief announcement to be made at an international airport, and it might upset the fluffies who want to forget about the war, although the Dutch suffered tremendously.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1490 Post by Capetonian » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:28 am

It amazes me that there are still people who believe in the integrity and future of this ludicrous artificial political and economic union.
France calls for EU 'empire' and warns of euro break-up in next crisis

President Macron and Chancellor Merkel agreed to relaunch the euro at Meseberg in June, but little has happened and time is running out Credit: Fabrizio Bensch/ REUTERS

France has launched a feverish campaign to shore up the euro before the next global downturn, warning that monetary union is not strong enough to withstand another crisis and faces disintegration without fiscal union.

Bruno Le Maire, the French finance minister, said there are just weeks left for Germany and the Dutch-led "Hanseatic League" to grasp the nettle on long-delayed reforms. “Either we get a eurozone budget or there will eventually be no euro at all,” he said.

“If there was new financial and economic crisis tomorrow, the eurozone could not respond. It is really urgent that we build-up the eurozone’s defences. We have been talking for too long,” he told the Handelsblatt.

Time is running out before the EU’s make-or-break summit on the future of the euro next month. The global expansion is looking tired and fragile.

Mr Le Maire said Europe’s leaders had failed to learned the lessons of 2008 and the 2012 debt crisis. They had not completed the banking union, or broken the "bank-sovereign doom loop" with full help from the bail-out fund (ESM).

Nor had they completed the capital markets union, or established a fiscal entity to bind EU economies closer together. “I am not being pessimistic, I am facing reality,” he said.

In extraordinary comments, Mr Le Maire said Europe must become a “form of empire, like China, and the US”, willing to deploy its full economic, monetary, technological, and cultural power on the world stage to confront the two great superpowers.

“I am talking about a peaceful empire, based on the rule of law. I use the term to sharpen awareness that we are going into a world where power matters. Europe should no longer shrink from deploying its power,” he said.

It is the first time that a top EU politician has admitted openly that the logic of European integration is imperial, rather than a hybrid treaty club of nation states.

Eurosceptics have long made this case, arguing that an imperial EU will necessarily become authoritarian. Their critique is that there is no unified people or "demos" that can plausibly form the foundation of an authentic pan-European democracy, and that the locus of accountable government must remain the nation state.

The euro ultimately requires an EU treasury, debt union, social security system, and tax authority, eviscerating the national parliaments by depriving them of their democratic lifeblood: the power of tax and spending. Economic and Monetary Union (EMU) therefore tends towards a technocrat imperial structure, akin to the medieval papacy.

A recent book by Belgian historian David Van Reybrouck said the EU had already come to resemble the interwar colonial empires of the Belgian, Dutch, British, or French, with their show-piece "councils of the people" while real power resided in a remote imperial executive. Mr Le Maire may come to regret opening this can of worms.

The French government is alarmed by the abrupt slowdown in the eurozone over the last seven months, and by signs that Italy may be slipping into recession. The darkening picture makes the budget showdown between Brussels and the insurgent Lega-Five Star alliance in Rome much more dangerous, with echoes of events before the Italian bond crisis of late 2011.

Both Barclays and Citigroup say Italian GDP is heading for contraction in the fourth quarter, with ugly implications with for the country’s debt dynamics.

Incipient capital flight has pushed up risk yields on 10-year Italian bonds to 306 basis points. This erodes the capital buffers of the banks, which hold €380bn of Italian bonds. Shares of Genoa lender Carige were suspended on Monday pending a €400m recapitalisation from Italy’s bank rescue fund.

Mr Le Maire will have his hands full if Italy spins into crisis. French bank exposure to the country is 12pc of France’s GDP, six times Greek exposure in 2010. BNP Paribas holds Italian sovereign and private debt equal to 47pc of its CET1 core capital, and Credit Agricole is at 29pc, mostly through subsidiaries. The figure for the nationalised Franco-Belgian bank Dexia is 556pc.

“The risk of contagion is huge. Italy is so big that it clearly represents a systemic threat to the whole euro area. The crucial problem is that the euroze still has no lender-of-last resort,” said Eric Dor from the IESEG business school in Lille.

The European Central Bank is already committed to winding down quantitative easing. It will halt its bond purchase scheme in December, leaving Rome nakedly exposed to the markets. The ECB has soaked up the entire net debt issuance of the Italian treasury over the last two years. There may be another round of long-term loans to euro area banks (TLTROs) to cushion the blow.

France’s Emmanuel Macron has staked his presidency on a grand bargain with Germany, pledging deep reform of the French economy in exchange for an overhaul of the euro.

Chancellor Angela Merkel offered him some comfort with the Franco-German Meseberg Declaration in June, agreeing to establish a “eurozone budget” to enhance competitiveness, and opening the door to an unemployment fund in acute crises (but in the form of loans, with no fiscal transfers).

Momentum has since faded and the text was in any case hedged about with caveats and conditionality. It also called for sovereign debt restructuring, a potential disaster for Italy. Lorenzo Codogno from LC Macro Advisors said this is playing with fire and could inadvertently prove the trigger for a systemic financial crisis. Yet France is clinging to Meseberg. “It is time for Germany to decide,” said Mr Lemaire.

The French pitch is that a timid vacillating Europe is being squeezed - or devoured - by the strongmen regimes of Donald Trump and Xi Jinping. The task is to turn the eurozone into a “sovereign economic power” able to stand up to this Hobbesian world order, and to resist Mr Trump’s extraterritorial sanctions and abuse of dollar financial hegemony.

“To meet this challenge, there is no other possible way than an accord between France and Germany. All else is an illusion,” said Mr Le Maire.

Whether Germany sees it that way in the post-Merkel era is an open question. The EU centre of gravity has shifted east. Many in Berlin suspect that the real French objective is to lay hands on the German credit card.

France has been in breach of the EU Stability Pact for most of the last decade and its debt has climbed to just under 100pc of GDP. Germany has gone in the opposite direction, running budget surpluses and cutting its debt to the Maastricht limit of 60pc. Sweet rhetoric cannot disguise this yawning divergence in interests.

Ashoka Mody, once German desk chief for the International Monetary Fund, said there is a core axiom in Berlin: Germany will not pay the bills of other member states. “My reading of 70 years of history is that no German chancellor will cross that line,” he said.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1491 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:21 pm

UK and EU officials have agreed the draft text of a Brexit agreement in a significant breakthrough for the talks.

A cabinet source told the BBC that the document has been agreed at a technical level by officials from both sides after intensive discussions this week.


So that's OK, then.

Whewh!

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1492 Post by OFSO » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:50 pm

"In the PM's chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they can't kill the beast"
(And of course Don Henley was right)
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave........

Never thought I'd be relying on the DUP to save us from May's incompetence.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1493 Post by Jetex Jim » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:09 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... el-verdict
For Brussels, the stakes are huge – this deal is about future damage limitation
Joris Luyendijk
From an EU perspective, the draft deal agreed on Tuesday in Brussels with Britain was never a deal. It is an attempt to rein in a country that has gone rogue. In the eyes of European governments as well as the wider Brussels-based diplomatic community, the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland is now part of Trump country. Frivolous, ridiculous and, above all, unreliable.

After over two years of mixed messages, U-turns and eye-watering ineptitude, all trust in Brussels that a British government’s word is worth more than the paper a billionaire-owned tabloid is printed on has evaporated. For this reason the draft deal is above all an exercise in future damage limitation: how to prevent future British governments from cheating their way out of agreed commitments and obligations. The stakes are huge, beginning with peace in Northern Ireland and extending to the rights of EU citizens in the UK and the stability of the eurozone’s financial architecture and the wider EU economy.

One shudders to think what havoc a group of well-prepared and disciplined Brexiteers could have wreaked on the EU. Two years between notification to leave and actual departure is a long time, and the EU is only united over Brexit because the British government could never choose between hard and soft Brexit. Had it done so, unity would have fractured, particularly if the UK had gone about it in a clever way. In spite of savage cuts Britain’s diplomatic corps is still respected and feared around the EU, and for good reason.

Alas, the Brexiteers were always more interested in scoring points in the Brexit press than in fighting actual battles in Brussels and other European capitals. The “exit” brand is now poisoned across the EU for at least half a decade, Brussels and EU governments have moved on. From an awkward uncle that was nonetheless part of the European family Britain has turned itself into an unreliable neighbour that is to be contained. As Donald Tusk put it right after the referendum result: we miss you already.
But how could Theresa May ever choose Hard or Soft Brexit? The various Leave advocates never managed to come to a consensus on what specific form Brexit would take.
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1494 Post by Woody » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:07 am

So he negotiates the deal and then resigns, wtf
Dominic Raab

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Today, I have resigned as Brexit Secretary. I cannot in good conscience support the terms proposed for our deal with the EU. Here is my letter to the PM explaining my reasons, and my enduring respect for her.

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08:53 - 15 Nov 2018
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1495 Post by Capetonian » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 am

I am not sure, given the factors, if the PM could have struck a better deal, but this one is certainly not a good one when considered from the perspectives of most parties (in the general, not political, sense).

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1496 Post by ian16th » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 am

This view from afar is that the UK is stumbling to a total hard Brexit.
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1497 Post by Jetex Jim » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:23 am

ian16th wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 am
This view from afar is that the UK is stumbling to a total hard Brexit.
And is this considered to be a good thing or a bad thing?
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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1498 Post by Ibbie » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:53 am

It's time for the Article 50 notice to be withdrawn, pending a general election and then if deemed necessary, by the new Government, a new vote.

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1499 Post by Slasher » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:35 pm

For a change I dialled up the BBC and watched May's address to the Lower House.

Has anyone here actually read this 586 page Brexit document? Why the big fuss by the majority of her own MPs as well as the real reasons for those resignations? I saw what Raab said briefly but it doesn't wash. May wouldn't support a one sided deal like that.


Though my primary interest is merely as an investor, I must say she came across to me as a bloody strong determined woman enduring a full two hours of pure utter *****. Had it been me I would've announced they're all a pack of miserable bastards, I've worked hard to get this nonsense together, and told 'em to go and sort out the bloody mess themselves then go bugger off for a beer. :ymtongue:

Tis nasty that 39 billion quid has to be forked over to those pricks in Brussels, but as she said it's a legal requirement. I said very early in this thread that Brexit is gonna be a tough battle but I had no idea how blatantly anti-pom that f***ing Tusk was.

One question: why do some of these MPs stand up and siddown after someone finishes saying something?

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Re: BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

#1500 Post by OFSO » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Do you really think that any other country would actually pay that much to the EU because of an 'obligation' ? The French would agree and then forget all about it, the Italians, Greeks and Portuguese plead poverty, the Spanish lose the paperwork and put anyone who mentioned it in prison for 'Rebellion', the Germans take it out of their NATO contribution...the Dutch and Belgians argue it's a cheese and clogs tax...

That's been Mrs May's problem all along. She thinks every other national leader and Brussels plays fair and thus the UK should too. In fact they are all self-serving deceptive lying unconscionable c*nts and she is as dim as a Toc H lamp.

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