BREXIT - A Poll & Discussion

[Bob]

I'm not retired, I am more Left wing than anyone on here, I am a vegetarian, I have never and will not ever vote for a conservative government, I despise what people call Capitalism.

I voted Out....how does that fit your profiling Jim?

[Jetex Jim]

I'm not retired, I am more Left wing than anyone on here, I am a vegetarian, I have never and will not ever vote for a conservative government, I despise what people call Capitalism.

I voted Out....how does that fit your profiling Jim?

I don't have a profile. Just some old people that I know who voted out.

Actually I'm not too surprised Bob. The EU was never a socialist project, as many see it. (And of course a large tranche of Labour support Brexit.)

Claiming it is(a socialist project) is just a ploy to mobilise the support of the numerous 'working class Consevatives' who might otherwise recognize the benefits of a union of nations.

[Capetonian]

I voted leave and have always detested the EU and everything it stands for since its conception.

I am de facto but not officially retired, in that I'm not drawing a pension, I don't see how that is in any way relevant. I may be 'racist' in some ways but I do not see how voting 'leave' can be associated to 'racism'. I despise socialism and everything it stands for.

Profile?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Jim, nobody's denying the benefits of a union of nations with common purpose, principles and cultures*...it's just that the EU isn't that. It was sold as a trade organisation only, then the top ploticians decided to make a power grab for everything else. The Brits, when finally given the choice 40-odd years later, told the EU where to stick that idea. Greece, Italy and assorted others that never had the same economics are hitting the buffers, the Eastern European expansion states have told the EU to keep their migrants, and the German people are about to draw the line about paying for any more of it. The EU has less than 10 years, maybe less than 5, to live. I shall not mourn its passing. If there's a world stock market collapse, the EU will be gone in weeks.

*Britain is (was) that, so is Germany for that matter.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Well, how many of the Brexit supporters on here are retired? Let's have a show of hands please.

84 yrs old, obviously retired, and longtime Ex-Pat, so my views would not be allowed to influence any decision now. Not sure if I was ever asked if I wanted to join when I was firmly, and only, UK resident and probably would have voted against joining at that time, but would have voted to remain a couple of years ago because, although many of the dictates of the EU are a PITA for UK residents, many are enshrined in UK law now. Does anyone really believe that a Magic Wand will restore life to that enjoyed before EU membership ? Yeah ! Right ! I envisage that if Brexit goes ahead, the UK will experience the worst of both "worlds" i.e. no longer totally self sufficient and minus what benefits membership of the EU might provide ? Happy to be proved wrong, but will I live long enough to see it ?

[llondel]

Saw on the BBC that the Germans have been told they're on the hook for another €13billion once the UK leaves. Got to fund the lifestyle and wastrel tendencies of those in power somehow.

[om15]

What started as the excellent idea of a common market, progressed to a common rule book on industry, goods, services and standards, has been transformed by politicians into the Fourth Reich, supported by the Frogs and funded by the British.
The insane acts by Merkel three years ago in welcoming a huge influx of non Europeans into Europe, incidentally issuing quotas to countries who had no intention of supporting her schemes, was the last straw.
We are the first to go, the discontent in southern European countries will not fade away, particularly as the EU will be cash strapped in the near future, so others may follow in the near future.

De Gaulle opposed Great Britain becoming part of the Common Market for two reasons, at the time under a Labour Government propped up by militant and destructive unions our country was a financial basket case that threatened the financial stability of Europe, secondly he intuitively knew that we just didn't fit into Europe with our Commonwealth ties and also our relationship with the US.

Mrs Thatcher resolved the first issue, but the second reason still stands and won't go away, we just simply are not committed to the European idea of increasing Federalism, it is better for us and better for them if we just leave, remain on good terms and make the best possible trading arrangements for both sides.

The thing that strikes me is that the British people instinctively knew that De Gaulle was right, but the majority of the politicians and establishment didn't get it. The threat now is that people like Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond, powerful figures who should be batting for England have no incentive to make it work, they would simply prove themselves wrong.

At the time that I voted to leave I was not retired, a very large number of my work colleagues, engineers, pilots, operations had spent their careers working overseas, completely international and used to living and working in Europe also voted to leave, the myth being created by those who choose to remain in the EU of leave supporters being parochial racist Alf Garnet characters just does not stack up, but it is convenient for them to think this way.

[llondel]

The thing that strikes me is that the British people instinctively knew that De Gaulle was right, but the majority of the politicians and establishment didn't get it. The threat now is that people like Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond, powerful figures who should be batting for England have no incentive to make it work, they would simply prove themselves wrong.

Look at who stood to gain from it. Lots of kudos and plaudits for politicians hopping on the gravy train. The EU is not all bad, change the governance and accountability at the top, accept that it's a long-term project over several lifetimes, and the UK would probably be quite happy being part of it. Instead we've had the Euro dumped on those who didn't read the fine print, on a political timetable rather than an economic one, and the dodgy EU commission pushing through their agenda regardless of the cost. At least if they'd dumped the commission and had something more akin to the US Senate where we could all vote for a couple of UK reps to go with a couple from each of the other countries then it might have been a bit more accountable rather than behind-the-scenes appointments based on mutual backscratching.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The EU is all bad. If you change it in the way you suggest, it's not the EU anymore, but the EEC. If there was an economic timetable, the Euro wouldn't exist. And however the Senate was comprised, it is still a Union which removes individual States voters' rights. There's no effective limits within the EU's constitution (aka Treaty of Lisbon).

[Bob]

nt......................

[Capetonian]

At the time that I voted to leave I was not retired, a very large number of my work colleagues, engineers, pilots, operations had spent their careers working overseas, completely international and used to living and working in Europe also voted to leave, the myth being created by those who choose to remain in the EU of leave supporters being parochial racist Alf Garnet characters just does not stack up, but it is convenient for them to think this way.

om15's comments have really hit several nails fairly and squarely on the head, in particular the above which applies to me. I travel a lot, in Europe and elsewhere, and the prospect of possibly having to get one or more visas does not bother me one iota, in fact if it reduces the numbers of illegal aliens and low-end tourists travelling around Europe, I would welcome it.

I would also welcome a return to real currencies such as the Peseta, Deutschmark, Guilder, Schilling and so on rather than an artificial political unit. The Euro would have been fine as a convenient means of payment for travellers and a notional currency for large inter-company settlements, but not as a foundation for the central banks and economies of 20 or so individual countries, although though we know that Drunker and Co's agenda is to eliminate individual countries and create a European superstate.

[Bob]

It gets sillier every day, 'civilisation' is being run by idiots with the backing of trillions of greedy, blinkered sheeple.........it'll fold soon enough

[Jetex Jim]

Well, the Brit's bitching about lack of democratic process in the EU has got to be the height of irony.

This from the country with an unelected second chamber, the ludicrous first past the post electoral system and the current situation where the handful of MPs of the DUP (not even the Conservative party) have the strongest role in the Brexit negotiations and are preventing the rest of the UK achieving a half decent deal.

And this is 'taking back control'?

[ian16th]

the ludicrous first past the post electoral system

It is NOT at all a ludicrous system.

It works very well.

Take a look at the ludicrous 'proportional representation' system that South Africa suffers under. 'The Party' is all powerful, the voter has no say.

At least in the UK everyone has a MP, irrespective of what party the MP belongs to, or who the voter voted for.

[llondel]

All election systems have problems, there is no good one. FPTP or STV are the two I'd go for though. The first (usually) gives a strong single-party government with a clear direction, even if you think it's the wrong direction. The second gives a mish-mash of everything where almost nothing can get done due to all the small parties able to walk out if they don't get their particular demands met. We're going to see this on a grander scale when the EU has to vote on the Brexit treaty, I foresee at least one nation refusing to agree unless something of special interest to them is incorporated (even if it's nothing to do with the UK).

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Living in the tiniest Province in Canada (by a large margin), there are occasionally rumblings of this sort from the mayors of Ontario cities who have a bigger population than our Province.
It needs to be remembered that these small annoying groups with their demands would not have joined a union in the first place without some disproportionate-to-population influence. The pertinent question is, why bother trying to get these groups in in the first place? It's interesting to note that, across humanity, nations seem keen to integrate every last little community, and offer these concessions to get them.

Personally, I'm an STV + RON* and Recall man myself. Worked perfectly at Durham University. If stuff needs to be done instantly in a crisis, then like the Ancient Greeks I think an absolute tyrant makes sense. You will never guess who I think that tyrant should be

*Re-Open Nominations.

[ExSp33db1rd]

All election systems have problems, there is no good one.

Including the MMP ( Mixed Member Proportion ) that NZ now practice. We get two votes, A Constituency Candidate, i.e. the one "real" person that you think will do best for you locally, and also a "Party" vote that you give to the party that you think is best. In the UK context you can vote for your personal, local, M.P. whom you happen to know and actually like as a rabble raiser who may get you that new roundabout built on the approach to town, but is a member of the Monster Raving Loony Party, so then you give your Party vote to, say, the Conservatives if you think that they are best for the Country as a whole. In NZ "List" M.P.s are appointed if any Party polls more than 5% Nationwide ( I think, all too much ! ) and these can be total nonentities that the population have never heard of but have toadied up to the party leaders in the past.

The ludicrousness of this was demonstrated in my Constituency last election - the previous, voted for M.P., was soundly beaten and thrown out as having been totally useless since the last election, his first time with us, but ... he was leader of a minority party that obtained more than the magic 5% popular vote so his party were entitled to nominate at last one M.P.from their list of "Buggins Turn" nonentities that they had previously compiled. In fact that party gained enough party votes to send a small group (forget the actual number - 9 maybe ? ) to Parliament.

As leader of the party, guess who was number one on the list ? So an M.P. that was soundly thrown out by the population re-entered Parliament, and as our Labour Party combined with his party to form a coalition that numbered more seats than the National Party, who gained more votes, and more Constituency M.P.s than Labour, and so formed the present government by default, and guess who is now Deputy Prime Minister, and therefore only a heart-beat from assuming power - yes, that's right, him who was soundly defeated by the electorate. Sounds like the USA system, whereby Hillary gained more votes but Trump grabbed power ?

Democracy is the worst from of Government, but better than the alternatives -Churchill.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I am wholly against party lists. One is voting for a Pig in a Poke, and it's morally wrong.
I would agree if, when people picked a party, they had to specify a name, and the MPs were chosen in the order of popularity of those names. Just as with RON and Recall, one could also have a NTW vote (Not That W@nker). The Ancient Greeks who invented democracy had a blackball system in parallel.

p.s. Trump did not "grab power". The USA has an Electoral College system, always has had, and no modern Democrat President has even mentioned changing it, nor did Clinton. Furthermore, any psephologist could have told you Clinton was an idiot for not aiming to win the Electoral College. She made no effort to concentrate on the Electoral College side of the vote, made numerous errors in this respect which were being pointed out by Democrats at the time, and paid the price. Hitting the wrong target (electoral majority) is the worst excuse.

[Capetonian]

What the UK needs, and lacks, is a leader who has the backbone to make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence along the lines of this one, made on 11th. November 1965 by the Right Honourable Ian Douglas Smith. Independent Rhodesia prospered for many years until it was sabotaged by by the self righteous sanctimonious west, with the dreadful results that we are all sadly familiar with.

Whereas in the course of human affairs history has shown that it may become necessary for a people to resolve the political affiliations which have connected them with another people and to assume amongst other nations the separate and equal status to which they are entitled:

And Whereas in such event a respect for the opinions of mankind requires them to declare to other nations the causes which impel them to assume full responsibility for their own affairs:

Now Therefore, We, The Government of Rhodesia, Do Hereby Declare:

That it is an indisputable and accepted historic fact that since 1923 the Government of Rhodesia have exercised the powers of self-government and have been responsible for the progress, development and welfare of their people;

That the people of Rhodesia having demonstrated their loyalty to the Crown and to their kith and kin in the United Kingdom and elsewhere through two world wars, and having been prepared to shed their blood and give of their substance in what they believed to be the mutual interests of freedom-loving people, now see all that they have cherished about to be shattered on the rocks of expediency;

That the people of Rhodesia have witnessed a process which is destructive of those very precepts upon which civilization in a primitive country has been built, they have seen the principles of Western democracy, responsible government and moral standards crumble elsewhere, nevertheless they have remained steadfast;

That the people of Rhodesia fully support the requests of their government for sovereign independence but have witnessed the consistent refusal of the Government of the United Kingdom to accede to their entreaties;

That the Government of the United Kingdom have thus demonstrated that they are not prepared to grant sovereign independence to Rhodesia on terms acceptable to the people of Rhodesia, thereby persisting in maintaining an unwarrantable jurisdiction over Rhodesia, obstructing laws and treaties with other states and the conduct of affairs with other nations and refusing assent to laws necessary for the public good, all this to the detriment of the future peace, prosperity and good government of Rhodesia;

That the Government of Rhodesia have for a long period patiently and in good faith negotiated with the Government of the United Kingdom for the removal of the remaining limitations placed upon them and for the grant of sovereign independence;

That in the belief that procrastination and delay strike at and injure the very life of the nation, the Government of Rhodesia consider it essential that Rhodesia should attain, without delay, sovereign independence, the justice of which is beyond question;

Now Therefore, We The Government of Rhodesia, in humble submission to Almighty God who controls the destinies of nations, conscious that the people of Rhodesia have always shown unswerving loyalty and devotion to Her Majesty the Queen and earnestly praying that we and the people of Rhodesia will not be hindered in our determination to continue exercising our undoubted right to demonstrate the same loyalty and devotion, and seeking to promote the common good so that the dignity and freedom of all men may be assured, Do, By This Proclamation, adopt, enact and give to the people of Rhodesia
the Constitution annexed hereto;

God Save The Queen

[Jetex Jim]

At the time that I voted to leave I was not retired, a very large number of my work colleagues, engineers, pilots, operations had spent their careers working overseas, completely international and used to living and working in Europe also voted to leave, the myth being created by those who choose to remain in the EU of leave supporters being parochial racist Alf Garnet characters just does not stack up, but it is convenient for them to think this way.

Nevertheless working class conservatives do exist and they chose Brexit. I encounter them whenever I'm obliged to come to the UK and visit Deliverance country, or Lincolnshire as some call it. These are the people who's head has been turned by endless royal weddings and the antics of Boris Johnson and Jacob Reese Moog, people who might be characters out of PG Woodhouse.

Such working class conservatives were, in back in the day, held to ridicule but now Al Murray's pub landlord character is carefully crafted so that the people he's satirising can laugh with him. As Stewart Lee reports

Al Murray’s patriotic Pub Landlord, though a favourite on BNP internet discussion boards, is in reality a satire of the Little England mentality

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2 ... -stand-ups

This elevated respect for 'toffs' has long been part of the english social structure but it's also necessary for the poor, white working class to have another group of still lower status to look down on. Post Brexit, when all the Poles go home, who will that be?