Another Fine Mess !

[Tall Bird]

Love it! I watched one maybe two episodes of The West Wing but have not seen that. Thanks.

Also apt from Iolanthe is When Britain Really Ruled The Waves but that's to do with the other place.

Off topic: was back home for senior bro's wedding in 1982. First few days I still spoke English not Canadian and many folk expressed concern, congrats, best wishes and asked if I had anyone involved in the Falklands business. No, but next door's daughter was courting a RAF heli engineer down there.* Escaped the pre-wedding folderol and went to see Chariots of Fire in local flea pit. Blimey, the audience really engaged when Jerusalem and He Is An Englishman featured. Lots of whoops and cheers. Saw the film later in UK and no reaction at all. He is an Englishman also features in Alan Bennett's play An Englishman Abroad about Guy Burgess's exile in Moscow - very apposite.

*we knew when E was visiting on leave - crates of Grolsch would be stacked up at the back door.

[Tom Joad]

Blimey, the audience really engaged when Jerusalem and He Is An Englishman featured. Lots of whoops and cheers. Saw the film later in UK and no reaction at all.

Yep tends to be that way - nobody is more patriotic than the expat, funny or ironic, maybe both.

Tom

[Alisoncc]

Sour grapes are definitely the fruit of the day. The "Remain" camp are petitioning for a repeat of the referendum with over three million signatures. Which is not the way a democracy works. If the Pollies accede to their demands then they will lose all credibility in the minds of the electorate. It is my belief that it is wholly unacceptable to keep re-visiting an "election" in the hope that a different result might be reached.

The people have spoken, end of story, and let's be done with it

[obgraham]

Well, we only petition for a recount or a do-over when the result goes against what we wanted, don't we?

Seems to me this is just following true to form -- keep voting till it goes the way you want. Then, all of a sudden, the matter is settled for all time.

[probes]

The referendum itself never promised resolution.It promised the opinion of the nation. That has now been obtained. It is a non-binding vote. The rest is up to Parliament.

Yeah, but unfortunately (?) the opinion is read as "We don't like you", which makes it very emotional, as seen by what has been said by the EU leaders.
And, once again, if there weren't (hadn't been) bitter campaigning on both sides (of whatever referenda), people might even make some sense in their choices.

[Sisemen]

Reminds me of the daylight savings stoush in Western Australia. Every few years there is a referendum, and every few years it is turned down decisively. The losers keep asking for a referendum. A few years ago the pollies got fed up with this so met them half way and instituted a 3 year trial hoping that a decisive vote at the end of the trial would be the end of the matter. As usual the vote was decisive - no to daylight savings, tried it, don’t like it, feck off again - forever. The following summer the press and the usual culprits were at it again - another referendum, we owe it to our kids etc etc etc. I expect the same again in November or thereabouts.

Sometimes people do not understand a democratic “NO”.

[Ibbie]

The Labour shadow cabinet is set to unravel this morning. Benn sacked and another has resigned. Tories also in turmoil, with Liam Fox being put forward as an acceptable alternative to Boris as next PM. Pro Europe Lib Dem party on the rise again with surge in membership since the referendum result. General election before the year end? Winning party, who will form new Government are pro Europe and refuse to implement Art 50 and leave EU? UK Independence Party and leader Farrage, dead in the water. Massive party defections from MPs on all sides coming up? New political landscape probable.

A total cock up!

Have also heard from a friend, who's son is in the Gibraltar Regiment,that they are on standby in case Spain decides to invade The Rock whilst confusion reigns.

[Boac]

Seems to me this is just following true to form -- keep voting till it goes the way you want. Then, all of a sudden, the matter is settled for all time.

Thankfully memories fade, but Southern Ireland rejected a 'referendum' and did it again until it was 'right'.

Source Wiki:
The first referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 12 June 2008 was rejected by the Irish electorate, by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6%, with a turnout of 53%.

The second referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 2 October 2009 and the proposal was approved by 67.1% to 32.9%, with a turnout of 59%.

To be sure................

[om15]

A Common Statement has been issued by the EU Ministers, I have highlighted in yellow the interesting paragraph.

The Foreign Ministers of Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands take note with regret of the fact that the British people have spoken out against EU-Membership. The decision of the British people marks a watershed moment in the history of Europe. The European Union is losing not only a member state, but a host of history, tradition and experience.

This creates a new situation. As a consequence of the decision of the British people, the agreement the European Council had found on 18/19 February ceases to exist. We now expect the UK government to provide clarity and give effect to this decision as soon as possible. The relevant provisions of the Lisbon Treaty (article 50 TEU) provide for an orderly departure. We stand ready to work with the institutions once the negotiations in order to define and clarify the future relations between the EU and the UK will start.

We remain of the firmest belief that the European Union provides a historically unique and indispensable framework for the pursuit of freedom, prosperity and security in Europe, for shaping peaceful and mutually beneficial relationships amongst its people and for contributing to peace and stability in the world.

Since its creation in 1957 by the six founding Members, the EU has gone a long and successful way. It has reunited Eastern and Western Europe and it has brought about the longest period of peace on our continent in modern times. Moreover, it has been a driving force to bring the people of Europe together and thereby delivered on its promise that we have committed ourselves to in the treaties: To create an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe. We will continue in our efforts to work for a stronger and more cohesive European Union of 27 based on common values and the rule of law.

It is to that end that we shall also recognize different levels of ambition amongst Member States when it comes to the project of European integration. While not stepping back from what we have achieved, we have to find better ways of dealing with these different levels of ambition so as to ensure that Europe delivers better on the expectations of all European citizens.

It is in this light that we strongly reaffirm our joint commitment to the European Union. However, we are aware that discontent with the functioning of the EU as it is today is manifest in parts of our societies. We take this very seriously and are determined to make the EU work better for all our citizens. Neither a simple call for more Europe nor a phase of mere reflection can be an adequate answer. We have to focus our common efforts on those challenges which can only be addressed by common European answers, while leaving other tasks to national or regional levels. We must better deliver on those issues that we have chosen to tackle on the European level. And we must accept our responsibility to reinforce solidarity and cohesion within the European Union.

Today, Europe is faced with huge challenges in a globalized world that require a better European Union: We must further concentrate the EU’s activities in today’s main challenges: ensuring the security of our citizens in the face of growing external and internal threats; establishing a stable and cooperative framework to deal with migration and refugee flows; boost the European economy through promoting the convergence of our economies, a sustainable and job-creating growth and advancing towards the completion of the European Monetary Union. These challenges take place against a backdrop of growing instability and geopolitical changes at our European borders.

We express our confidence in our common European future.

[Tom Joad]

Lessons being learned perhaps.

Tom

[om15]

I think so Tom, had that statement been published before our referendum the results may have been quite different, I think many people would have preferred to remain in a reformed EU, but when it became obvious this wasn't an option following Cameron's discussions they opted for a Leave vote.
There is an awareness in the EU that certain functions that are being performed by the UK, such as naval patrols and the management centre for naval co-ordination cannot be easily be transferred back to member states, which is possibly why Merkel is calling for the post Brexit talks to be carried out "without being nasty" and that there is no immediate hurry, as we have remarked, this is not a one way street.

The politicians are now going to have to earn their money and do their jobs, looks like the Labour Party are going into an unrecoverable spin this morning.

[Boac]

Indeed so - the arrogance displayed up to now has been severely dented by the fear of mass 'devolution' I think.

Whether they could be trusted (remember they are politicians) is another matter.

[Mrs Ex-Ascot]

It would be interesting to know what the response would have been to a third option on the voting paper; Don't Know.

[Tom Joad]

They, the commission, are already acknowledging that the EU needs to change to recognise the different aspirations in membership of their member states. This could bode well for Scotland when and if we leave the Uk, not all current EU membership constraints may then be imposed.

[om15]

I suspect that the EU will bend all the rules in order to retain or accept an Independent Scotland, if only for the propaganda value, they will overlook the financial entry requirements (as they did with Greece), Wee Nippy seems to be going for it this morning, she has no choice really, one thing is fore sure, she won't be up against "Project Fear" the second time round.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

EU statement - Dishonest waffle, as usual.

No, they can't be trusted.
The statements made before the Referendum were outright bullying, and now they've been called on them they are backing off like crazy.
The central power of the EU is not elected by popular franchise, hence there is no freedom.
Europe was reunited and kept peaceful by NATO, not the EU.
The major problems are mass migration and unrestricted movement of workers, and this statement promises to continue with that. It only says it will make it more stable, but they have no mechanism to do that with and they know it.

In simple terms, they still do not 'get it'. I don't think they are capable of it - they are not the kind of people who can handle facing their own failures. We all get things wrong, but this lot are incapable of admitting that (honestly) and changing - they have no humility.

Neither have the UK political parties, which is why they are collapsing in shock now reality has smacked them in the face. DC is running away from a job he promised to do. I have no idea which Planet Jeremy Corbyn is on, but to be fair to him it's the same one he's always been on, so it's the Labour Party as a whole that needs to take a long hard look at itself. I doubt they will.

[Sisemen]

Wonder how Merkel is feeling knowing that she was responsible for this by throwing open the doors to Europe without any consultation with the other members.

[Tom Joad]

I suspect that the EU will bend all the rules in order to retain or accept an Independent Scotland, if only for the propaganda value, they will overlook the financial entry requirements (as they did with Greece), Wee Nippy seems to be going for it this morning, she has no choice really, one thing is fore sure, she won't be up against "Project Fear" the second time round.

Oh I rather think Wee Nippy want's anything but to be bounced into Indy Ref 2 until she knows that the outcome will with certainty be Yes - she has been consistent with that all along - "it is the peoples' choice not her's nor the SNP's". What she is committed to now, is working with a determination to engage the EU in exploring the art of the possible in maintaining Scotland within the EU while rUK negotiates its exit. I do not beleive that she will be successful here but I do not doubt her genuine motivation. That said, there is no certainty in the exit process for the rUK and a range of options could be considered by the EU - associate membership (limited entitlement and commitments) for Scotland until she leaves UK is surely one consideration. That is certainly within the gift of the EU, will they be bold and brave enough to consider radical reform and such options?

Where I agree wholeheartedly with you om is that Project Fear has been exposed for what it is - we saw the same old rubbish from the establishment in both referenda. It was the establishment's attempt designed to scare children and the simple of mind. Do you not remember how the very acceptance of Project Fear was ridiculed by the No side in the indy referendum; remember how you and they rest of the No side chided the "cyber nats" for conjuring up Project Fear as a false bogey man. How ironic, that they (sic No) found themselves facing the beastie again, this time against themselves in the EU referendum. One thing is for sure, Project Fear is now a Busted Flush, the beastie has been slain - the fearties in Scotland were fooled once by it, hopefully not again. Wee Nippy knows exactly what she is doing om; of all the political leaders we have at the moment, she alone comes across as credible and she certainly commands the respect of a large percentage of the electorate.

Tom

[Boac]

As has been pointed out, 46% of the Scottish vote was to 'leave' - she needs to take this into account.

[Tom Joad]

They did Boac. But remember in the indy ref we were told by the establishment (the Pm , the Chancellor et al) that the only way to guarantee continued membership of the EU was to vote NO. A material difference now exists, that little element of Project Fear has just been exposed as a lie. 62% of the electorate in Scotland just voted to remain in the EU but we are to be removed by the outcome in England. Can you imagine the outrage had that been the other way round. Wee Nippy as om likes to call her will be working hard to win the hearts and minds of the No voters from the Indy ref in light of the establishment's big fat lie. You know I don't think she will need to work that hard but time will tell.

Tom