Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#1 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:28 am

Boris today in the Telegraph:

'It is said that those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration. I do not believe that is so.'


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... --and-alw/

So, it appears the politicians of both main parties have no intention of actually activating Article 50, or restricting immigration.

The impression I got from family members is that this isn't going to wash at all. Would be very grateful for comments on what the likely fall out from this is going to be.

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#2 Post by Boac » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:36 am

So, it appears the politicians of both main parties have no intention of actually activating Article 50, or restricting immigration.
- are we reading the same article?

Q2: Why so many threads?

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#3 Post by Capetonian » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:42 am

My view is that at least 50% of the electorate should not have been allowed to vote, in fact I'll go a step further and say they should probably have been strangled at birth and their parents sterilised to prevent further breeding.

Judging by the inane comments I heard whilst I was in the UK for the few days preceding and following the referendum, the result was, whilst undoubtedly the right one, achieved only by a miracle and could easily have gone the other way.

I heard comments such as :
"I'm voting remain as otherwise we won't be able to get imported beer ......."
"I voted remain otherwise when I go on me 'ols to Benidorm I'll 'ave to pay a shitload for me phone calls 'ome"

Then there were the cretins who made comments such as : "I voted leave but now I wish I hadn't, I'm gutted that we're leaving, and I didn't think my vote would count."

As I have said before, franchise should be based on a minimum level of education, knowledge, and intelligence.

I suspect, and fear, that the result of this referendum was achieved for the wrong reasons and may well be overturned, which will be a bitter disappointment for about 17 million people, having come so close to the result they wanted, or thought they wanted. The positive will be that it will have started an unstoppable revolt throughout Europe against the EU, such as that which caused the fall of communism, so victory is in sight, but perhaps not as close as we would like.

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#4 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:09 am

Boac - I think so. Boris insists Britons will still be able to live and work in the EU - how is he going to be able to get that without reciprocal rights for EU citizens? Article 50 is conspicuous by its absence.

My thought in trying to set up a different thread is that the consequences of political decisions re EU are different from, say, the UK consequences of Brexit for political parties. I agree that some threads have become mingled.

Capetonian - Whilst your reasons for wishing to reduce the franchise have some merit,I repeat my prior assertion that I don't see how this can work in practice, especially given the parlous state of UK education, and the fact that is UK is in this mess because of a group of politicians with arguably the highest level of education, knowledge and intelligence ever - unless you are willing to agree that a degree in PPE or History from Oxford is clearly worth less than GCSE in Woodwork, which it would seem to be on the evidence ;).

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#5 Post by Boac » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:13 am

So, Cape, do I understand you have also seen the same as Fox in that article? Did you both expect that post-Brexit we were going to dig the Channel deeper, mine the tunnel and build sea defences against Europe?

What Boris (supposedly) said in that article is exactly what I voted 'Leave' for - we ARE part of Europe, we do need to co-operate as a fellow European country where we can but we DO not want to be 'controlled' by an unelected consortium with Federalistic ambitions OR dragged into a failing Euro fiasco.

I would appreciate either of you C&P'ing the bit in that article that says
the politicians of both main parties have no intention of actually activating Article 50, or restricting immigration.
I've read it twice and cannot see it. Help me? If it is so, this is a serious matter.

EDIT: Just seen your reply, Fox. ANYONE can live and work anywhere in the free world providing they meet entry requirements. One of the major keys in this campaign has been to provide a level playing field for entry and work in the UK which does not exist at present. I suspect (hope) that Boris's reference to access to 'Europe' refers to a belief that the EU will come to its senses and change.

Surely there is no mention of article 50 since it is now a required process?

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#6 Post by OFSO » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:19 am

As usual, Mr C, you are being far too restrained when you write:

My view is that at least 50% of the electorate should not have been allowed to vote, in fact I'll go a step further and say they should probably have been strangled at birth and their parents sterilised to prevent further breeding.

In fact, funding should be given discreetly to a few labs to develop a time machine in which one could travel back a few thousand years and exterminate the forefathers of entire generations which were due to produce retards such as Corbyn.

TD: I have been reading these past few days the 1939-1945 War Diaries of Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke. What a fine loyal intelligent man he was. Looking at the incumbents of the Palace of Westminster today for someone even remotely near possessing his qualities is an exercise in futility.

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#7 Post by OFSO » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:23 am

One of the major keys in this campaign has been to provide a level playing field for entry and work in the UK

Well, in the UK maybe but in the EU Member State where I live, no. Many occupations (Social Services, Judiciary, Police etc) are by law reserved for only native-born Spanish, and tacitly that is understood to mean native-born-white Spanish. Furthermore - and I speak only of Catalunia now - apply for any job and you don't have a Catalan or Spanish surname and your chances are nil unless you produce a letter of recommendation from the local Mayor (after a donation to charity is made, of course).

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#8 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:25 am

I feel the point is that he doesn't say 'Article 50', as I said in the previous post.
A tweet from the Campaign Director of Vote Leave today also seems to indicate that there is no rush to, or definite commitment to, activating Article 50
Image
Article here: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02 ... formed-eu/

Boris is not without guile - he has clearly avoided saying what I expect a large number of people expected as a result of voting Leave, that EU migration would be restricted and the formal Leave process (Article 50) activated. EU Commissioners are reportedly making it plain today that they do not intend to negotiate without A50 being activated, so we'll have to see how this develops.

OFSO - Have you read 'Masters and Commanders' by Andrew Roberts? http://www.historytoday.com/richard-wil ... on-war-wes

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#9 Post by Boac » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:35 am

Well, Boris cannot say that since the decision to do restrict EU immigration has to be a parliamentary decision, as the 'Leavers' have said all along when questioned - it is down to the wish of the people. The removal of 'free entry' for EU residents will in itself naturally reduce the numbers dramatically. The invocation of Article 50 is for whichever government is in power, not Boris. If people believe things would 'happen overnight' then they are fools.

The EU commissioners will have to wait, then. It will be interesting to see how other member states react.

I would also fully support some sort of 'Associate Membership' - ideally a return to a simple free trade agreement for which there is NO need for 'free movement' of people. I would like everyone to take a deep breath and wait a while.

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#10 Post by SOPS » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:23 pm

Merkel now says they have to act to close the borders....she IS really stupid.

Capetonian

Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#11 Post by Capetonian » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:49 pm

Hang on ...... from another thread :
Angela Merkel has warned that moves to close Europe’s borders to refugees risk plunging Greece into “chaos”.

Which is it?
It's a total stuff up whether they close the borders (realistically, not possible anyway) or not

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#12 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:59 pm

A Comres Poll shows that about 1% of Leave voters are now unhappy with Brexit, however 4% of Remain voters are now happy. Needless to say, the media has somehow failed to find a single one of the happy Remainers, but all of the unhappy Leavers.

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#13 Post by Sisemen » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:58 pm

I can point them in the direction of my two daughters who are happy remainers.

Capetonian

Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#14 Post by Capetonian » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:38 pm

Or in the direction of my son, who is very unhappy with the Leave vote and my contribution thereto.

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#15 Post by rgbrock1 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:44 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:A Comres Poll shows that about 1% of Leave voters are now unhappy with Brexit, however 4% of Remain voters are now happy. Needless to say, the media has somehow failed to find a single one of the happy Remainers, but all of the unhappy Leavers.


Eh? But what about the leavers who remain? Or the remainers who leave? :D
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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#16 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:03 pm

In and Out - It's like cricket
You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out.
When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.
When both sides have been in and all the men have out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#17 Post by om15 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:33 pm

I have never been much of a UKIP devotee, and have failed to take a shine on Nigel until this week.

Now we have a disintegrating labour party under the astonishing Corbyn, a mute and disgraced prime minister, Tories wondering what to do next, but this is Nigel Farage today, I admire this forthright address, and wish that our current parliamentary leaders could be so direct.

Below is Nigel Farage's full speech to the European Parliament on 28 June 2016 after Britain voted to leave the European Union
Isn’t it funny? When I came here 17 years ago and I said that I wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the European Union, you all laughed at me – well I have to say, you’re not laughing now, are you? The reason you’re so upset, you’re so angry, has been perfectly clear, from all the angry exchanges this morning.
You as a political project are in denial. You’re in denial that your currency is failing. Just look at the Mediterranean! As a policy to impose poverty on Greece and the Mediterranean you’ve done very well.

You’re in denial over Mrs. Merkel’s call for as many people as possible to cross the Mediterranean – which has led to massive divisions between within countries and between countries.

The biggest problem you’ve got and the main reason the UK voted the way it did is because you have by stealth and deception, and without telling the truth to the rest of the peoples of Europe, you have imposed upon them a political union. When the people in 2005 in the Netherlands and France voted against that political union and rejected the constitution you simply ignored them and brought the Lisbon treaty in through the back door.

What happened last Thursday was a remarkable result – it was a seismic result. Not just for British politics, for European politics, but perhaps even for global politics

Because what the little people did, what the ordinary people did – what the people who’d been oppressed over the last few years who’d seen their living standards go down did – was they rejected the multinationals, they rejected the merchant banks, they rejected big politics and they said actually, we want our country back, we want our fishing waters back, we want our borders back.

We want to be an independent, self-governing, normal nation. That is what we have done and that is what must happen. In doing so we now offer a beacon of hope to democrats across the rest of the European continent. I’ll make one prediction this morning: the United Kingdom will not be the last member state to leave the European Union.

The question is what do we do next? It is up to the British government to invoke article 50 and I don’t think we should spend too long in doing it. I totally agree that the British people have voted, we need to make sure that it happens.

What I’d like to see is a grownup and sensible attitude to how we negotiate a different relationship. I know that virtually none of you have never done a proper job in your lives, or worked in business, or worked in trade, or indeed ever created a job. But listen, just listen.

You’re quite right Mr Schultz – Ukip used to protest against the establishment and now the establishment protests against Ukip. Something has happened here. Let us listen to some simple pragmatic economics – my country and your country, between us we do an enormous amount of business in goods and services. That trade is mutually beneficial to both of us, that trade matters. If you were to cut off your noses to spite your faces and reject any idea of a sensible trade deal the consequences would be far worse for you than it would be for us.

[Laughter from MEPs]

Even no deal is better for the United Kingdom is better than the current rotten deal that we’ve got. But if we were to move to a position where tariffs were reintroduced on products like motorcars then hundreds of thousands of German works would risk losing their jobs.

Why don’t we be grown up, pragmatic, sensible, realistic and let’s cut between us a sensible tariff-free deal and thereafter recognise that the United Kingdom will be your friend, that we will trade with you, cooperate with you, we will be your best friends in the world. Do that, do it sensibly, and allow us to go off and pursue our global ambitions and future.

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#18 Post by rgbrock1 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:14 pm

A round of applause for Mr. Farage for speaking the non-political truth. :-bd :YMAPPLAUSE:
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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#19 Post by BackToAllNightLights » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:52 pm

Yes, nice to hear some plain talk. Unfortunately due to the omnipresent political mind block filters in the room, I doubt any of it really got through to the audience.
History does Not repeat itself through time. It does however, sometimes rhyme.

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Re: Out, apparently, doesn't mean Out

#20 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:08 pm

I dunno. I think home truths usually do get through to the kind of bureaucratic jerks who inhabit places like the EU. That's why they put so much effort into not letting home truths be spoken in the first place. They would always feign indifference,but I think it does bite. Like Farage, I have a habit of speaking my mind when I'm leaving, and I've been told afterwards by former colleagues that it does get through. Especially when the illusion of being able to ignore reality drops away, as now.

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