One wonders...

[Airborne Aircrew]

Since the last "Second Amendment" thread was closed because the Admin seems to see it as "extreme" if she can justify closing a thread that exemplifies the feelings and thoughts of the Founding Fathers of what, to date has been one of the most successful and powerful nations in the world, then one wonders what other subjects might fall under the censorship.

Who knows better what the Second Amendment means than the Founding Fathers? Here are some powerful gun quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves."
- Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

It is _very clear_ what the founders of the United States meant by the second amendment and as we all know, it has both positive and negative repercussions.

The question is: Do the negatives currently being experienced override the rights of some 300 million people not to be subjugated by a hostile and pejorative government?

[MoreAviation]

The question is: Do the negatives currently being experienced override the rights of some 300 million people not to be subjugated by a hostile and pejorative government?

Let's be frank (or Peter or John) AA, governments, including the government of the USA, whatever the Second Amendment or whatever says, have been subjugating their people without much concern for centuries and will continue to do so whatever their constitutions say or not, such is the perversity of men.

Still, despite all your high minded allusions to the founding fathers of the USA, I would suggest that the closing of the previous thread had less to do with US constitutional law and more to do with a somewhat pornographic (not to say perverse) delight that some people have in seeing other people shot on video while yanking off over ammo and gun oil.

MA

[admin]

Still, despite all your high minded allusions to the founding fathers of the USA, I would suggest that the closing of the previous thread had less to do with US constitutional law and more to do with a somewhat pornographic (not to say perverse) delight that some people have in seeing other people shot on video while yanking off over ammo and gun oil.

Spot on MA. It was without doubt more about pornography than anything else. Some of the contributors were getting quite orgasmic while posting.

[Chuks]

The Second Amendment is subject, quite properly, to interpretation by the Supreme Court.

Here it is as whole: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The present interpretation essentially ignores the part about a "well regulated Militia," the context in which the people have the right to keep and bear Arms, to focus simply on the right of the people to keep arms.

A well regulated Militia? That would be each state's National Guard, when many have such arms as M-1 tanks and F-15 fighters, along with the usual small arms that so many gun fondlers are so very attached to.

The right to "bear" arms? I did that, in the U.S. Army as a soldier. That's one interpretation of how one should "bear Arms." It must mean more than just walking out of Walmart carrying your new Chinese copy of an AK-47, but that is, of course, subject to judicial interpretation. It's not just walking around doing "open carry," bearing arms, but being a member of a "well regulated Militia." Some yahoo stood there with a pistol on his hip is probably not quite what the Founding Fathers had in mind as a member of a "well regulated Militia," since to "bear Arms" means more than just having a gun in your hands even with no real idea of how to use it.

Here we see again the way that the gun fondlers only want the parts of the Constitution they like, not the whole of it.

I understand that some people here think themselves ace pistoleros, probably having sent thousands of bucks worth of bullets down-range, but for every one of those who may be barely competent there are probably a thousand others ranging from hopeless incompetents and lunatics, to outright gangsters, to children, even small children, who happen upon an unsecured gun they take for something to play with, or even to use settling some childish quarrel.

(No orgasms were harmed during the writing of this post.)

[Boac]

Dear Agony Aunt - is it normal to get a hard on when reading these threads?

Actually, I'm not sure an 'aunt' would know.................

[Chuks]

Dear Wondering,

Aunties can get hard-ons too! Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoris

Just the other night, in fact, we Americans saw a bruising televised encounter between two hard-ons: one with a hard-on and the other one with a limp micro-penis.

Free your mind. Tune in, turn on, and drop out.

Agony Aunt

[MoreAviation]

Dear Wondering,

Aunties can get hard-ons too! Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoris

Just the other night, in fact, we Americans saw a bruising televised encounter between two hard-ons: one with a hard-on and the other one with a limp micro-penis.

Free your mind. Tune in, turn on, and drop out.

Agony Aunt

Do you know that the only 8 letter anagram I can find for clitoris on my Laszlo Carriedas 'cheat at scrabble machine' is coistril?

Fancy that!

Good word mind.

MA

[Airborne Aircrew]

MA et al:

I would suggest that the closing of the previous thread had less to do with US constitutional law and more to do with a somewhat pornographic (not to say perverse) delight that some people have in seeing other people shot on video while yanking off over ammo and gun oil.

What is it with you lefties that, regardless of what is said, you always manage to assign the absolute worst thing to it. We are racists, bigots, xenophobes, what ever... You have a "sickness" of sorts. Somehow, you manage to assign a pornographic tag to a video of a brave woman defending herself. We, who appreciate that, somehow become "perverts" who, in your twisted eyes, are masturbating frantically at the discharge of a firearm...

With that attitude you stain every person that as ever served any country in the world in that country's military and in doing so show yourselves to have less worth. Because everyone who served used a firearm at some point and enjoyed it. Even Chuks, who is a charlatan and he knows it, because his boast is that in _basic_ training he was awarded a grade of "expert"... Anyone with any service knows that you are awarded high marks for "marksmanship" in basic training for the most rudimentary of shooting skills... Had he actually been worthy he wouldn't bother telling anyone how good he was in "basics" because everyone knows that's for kids...

No-one who supports the Second Amendment and watches that video gets a hard on. What they see is a brave lady defending herself against some scum who thought they had an easy target.

I'll tell you what I saw as I watched that video... Careful - this may be seen as _extreme_. And I haven't seen the video in a couple of days and only watched it two or three times previously.

I see three criminals kick in a door that appears to be into a storeroom or garage. I see them rapidly and aggressively enter, spread out and are clearly on the offensive. Then there is a short break until they begin a rapid retreat. Then a diminutive woman enters the scene with a firearm and scatters the intruders. She appears to be talking on the phone - presumably 911 - and firing with one hand. I see the intruders separate with one coming towards a camera and disappearing from view and the other two exiting through a door. I see the woman shooting at the two leaving through the door but also looking to see where the one who disappeared from camera view went. She then, apparently convinced he was no longer a threat, (for whatever reason), turned her attention back to the two leaving via the door until, it seems, she ran out of ammunition.

That is called "observation"... There was no woody involved. It doesn't "turn me on". What it does do is reinforce my belief that armed people are better prepared for bad situations than your average sheep. Don't like being called a sheep? Oh my, my heart bleeds for you.

The only wankers around here are those that assign the "mastubatory" tag to people who can watch such a video and see what unfolds rather than the wet dream they wish to assign to others...

My contempt is yours to cherish...

[Pinky the pilot]

Still, despite all your high minded allusions to the founding fathers of the USA, I would suggest that the closing of the previous thread had less to do with US constitutional law and more to do with a somewhat pornographic (not to say perverse) delight that some people have in seeing other people shot on video while yanking off over ammo and gun oil.

Spot on MA. It was without doubt more about pornography than anything else. Some of the contributors were getting quite orgasmic while posting.

I don't know if I would really go that far MA & Alison; But I saw the thread appearing to descend into personal abuse and name calling, and considered that this would not improve, which is why I suggested that it be locked.

[500N]

Still, despite all your high minded allusions to the founding fathers of the USA, I would suggest that the closing of the previous thread had less to do with US constitutional law and more to do with a somewhat pornographic (not to say perverse) delight that some people have in seeing other people shot on video while yanking off over ammo and gun oil.

Spot on MA. It was without doubt more about pornography than anything else. Some of the contributors were getting quite orgasmic while posting.

I don't know if I would really go that far MA & Alison; But I saw the thread appearing to descend into personal abuse and name calling, and considered that this would not improve, which is why I suggested that it be locked.

"appearing to descend into personal abuse and name calling, "

And you quoted a good example by MA.

OK, maybe not "personal" but abuse and name calling, innuendo of anyone interested in firearms.

Quoted from MA's post
"and more to do with a somewhat pornographic (not to say perverse) delight that some people have in seeing other people shot on video while yanking off over ammo and gun oil."


We could apply the "pornographic (not to say perverse)" tag to quite a few interests of various
people on here if we want to get into a personal slanging match over people's interests.

So MA, you want to start slinging vitriol over those who are interested in firearms,
go ahead but don't expect niceties back.

[Pinky the pilot]

but don't expect niceties back.

Which is how things do eventually turn nasty, 500N.

Just ignore 'em!!

[Chuks]

charlatan
ˈʃɑːlət(ə)n/
noun
noun: charlatan; plural noun: charlatans

a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill.
"a self-confessed con artist and charlatan"

AA jumps right back into it, calling me a "charlatan" for stating a fact, that I fired "Expert" in Basic Training (not "basics") when our resident gun fondler, the guy who knew every little fact about every gun ever, turned out to be a lousy shot. There were three levels of skill to be demonstrated then, Expert, Sharpshooter, and Marksman, when I demonstrated the highest level, Expert, but he only got Marksman. Awkward fact, that!

I know this is a subtle point, but I was twitting the gun fondlers with that fact that I shot Expert when our resident gun fondler proved to be a lousy shot. No, I am not an accomplished shooter; that was my point!

How AA can get from the fact that I shot Expert to the assumption that I am a poor shot, or that I must be faking that modest claim, is difficult to understand. I guess these are just a few more things that he needs to believe, along with how good it must be to live in a country with approximately one gun per inhabitant and a very high rate of death by firearms. These are not reasonable beliefs, actually.

Some people really like guns, and some people also seem to like videos of people being killed by guns, as if those two things might go together in some mysterious way. (That would be sort of like coupling sex with pregnancy, something some gun fondlers must still be trying to figure out, along with where that stork comes into it.)

Well, tastes do differ (said the lady as she kissed the pig). Part of the argument here must be "Which end of the pig are you kissing there, Wild Bill?" You might want to back off and take a good look at that, AA.

[MoreAviation]

"appearing to descend into personal abuse and name calling, "

And you quoted a good example by MA.

You guys do leave yourselves open to ridicule I am afraid...

I believe that mental masturbation over a video showing the death of somebody is abuse, but like all kinds of masturbation it is self abuse, so in one sense you guys have been involved in personal abuse, i.e. you are abusing yourselves. Like my father used to say to me as a young whippersnapper, when I looked like I might be corrupting my mind with pornographic images, girls not violent death by gun for me, "go out and do something useful, sweep the leaves or something". This is my advice to you chaps. Breathe deeply, control your primal urges, eat pulses and go out gently into the world (in a manner of speaking).

Good old AA purports to know us 'lefties'. Well I am left handed so apart from making me sinister, it does make me a leftie of sorts. My personal political beliefs are my own and not to be sullied by the kneejerk reaction of somebody who assumes that anybody that doesn't share his rather antediluvian attitudes to life in general is a 'leftie' which is simply a code for somebody who doesn't necessarily agree with his bull.

As for the other hogwash about disrespecting the' military' and martial glory I would suggest that only knaves hoo hah and wrap themselves in the flag, while gently pointing out that I too served for a while (as a conscript true) but that's another story and a long forgotten war. Oh, yes, and I also own a gun. Locked very securely in a safe in Cape Town as I speak, so no loving oiling from me every day at the moment.

MA

[BenThere]

I think more has been made of the video than what it is: video evidence of a person defending their home and property with a firearm, as she had a right to do under US Constitutional law, the supreme law of the land.

[boing]

We should simply accept the comments of Chuks and MA for what they really are, the fantasizing of a couple of know nothing, done nothing, elitist liberals. Let's face it, despite their claims of "I shot a gun well, once, once" and "I know as much as you guys because I have a gun locked in a safe in Cape Town" they really have SFA practical experience of what they are talking about.

After we have worked on a firearm the customer has to provide an address to which they would like the firearm to be returned. This has to be an address where they will be during the daytime since they need to personally sign for the firearm on delivery - so I get to see where they all work. The number of professionals who, from our list, are gun owners is remarkable. If I see a particularly interesting address I will sometimes search the persons name. Recently we worked on a gun for a medical professional who had an important medical advance to his credit and he is a Professor at a well known university. We get doctors, attorneys, military officers and other ranks (who get a discount), police officers, business owners (including a great guy who has a local fruit pie baking business who gets his driver to drop-off a sample with us occasionally), pilots, all types of worthy people and, of course, no criminals. Our receptionist was concerned when she joined us because she would not know how to deal with these ranting gun owners on the phone. Now she spends ages chatting with them about their families and their vacations. If these people are the nutters and perverts that Chuks and MA refer to then they have been doing a darn good job hiding it from their patients and clients. These are exactly the same people that you would meet at a golf club.

So, relax about Chuks and MA, "it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.'

.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Boing:

Good composition, excellently articulated and you have now attracted the two nutters to yourself...

Good luck...

[MoreAviation]

You two are the most amusing nincompoops...

I must admit it is not often I am called a liberal but I'll wear the moniker.

MA

[500N]

I think more has been made of the video than what it is: video evidence of a person defending their home and property with a firearm, as she had a right to do under US Constitutional law, the supreme law of the land.

Even without the Constitution, she should have the right to defend herself and her house / property
- with or without a firearm but I think with one. Only idiots would argue otherwise.

It's only stupid Gov't that have de armed the civilian population and let them be at the mercy of thugs, crims etc
that we can't defend ourselves in most countries with firearms.

Those 3 guys were not looking for a feed, that's for sure.

[boing]

500
Being a Brit. I often talk to people who ask why the people of the UK do not demand the ability to defend themselves with firearms but then I point out to them that, unlike the US, there is no pool of trained shooters in the UK and no resources of instructors and ranges capable of training them. As far as the UK is concerned I think they have been so neutered (there's another pervert statement for you Chuks, references to blood, violence and sex organs ) that I would not trust anybody, apart from a few ex-mil. to be safe with a firearm. If the UK tried to train 50% of the population just to be safe with a firearm, not good in its use, it would take them 20 years.

.

[boing]

I must admit it is not often I am called a liberal but I'll wear the moniker.

Well, you must admit that anyone who chooses an effeminate looking French ponce for his avatar must be at least a little bit suspect.

Looks like good guillotine fodder to me. I wonder how many French aristocrats spent their last hours of freedom praying for a firearm.

.