The US Hamster Wheel

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BenThere
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5621 Post by BenThere » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:43 pm

I disagree.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5622 Post by John Hill » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:48 pm

Of course you do Ben, your prized military uniform does not outrank the blue coveralls of the garbage man.
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5623 Post by BenThere » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:45 pm

Seeing as how I retired from USAF in 2004, and from Delta Air Lines in 2016, none of my uniforms hold any rank at all. Now I'm just an old retired fellow, no threat to anyone.

I have respect for the garbage man who puts in a hard day's work and earns an honest living. In fact, when I ultimately win the Powerball lottery, with $400 million or so in the bank, I intend to make his life a whole lot better.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5624 Post by John Hill » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:04 pm

BenThere wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:45 pm
In fact, when I ultimately win the Powerball lottery, with $400 million or so in the bank, I intend to make his life a whole lot better.

Closet socialist?
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5625 Post by BenThere » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:10 pm

Absolutely not! Just a good guy.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5626 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:18 pm

BenThere wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:10 pm
Absolutely not! Just a good guy.
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5627 Post by John Hill » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:20 pm

Why are you waiting for the 400megabux?
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5628 Post by boing » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:14 am

John,

You really must get a grasp on reality. There is a reason for a uniform and this has been so since well BC. A uniform is a quick and practical method of identifying an individual's position in the chain of command, a mode of dress that was adopted by most civilian activities for the same purpose, train drivers and station masters, airline crew and maritime crew, police forces - all wear uniforms for the same purpose, to identify the position of people that they may not recognise or be acquainted with - and the idea works very well so do not knock it from your pompous sheltered viewpoint, or perhaps you prefer a baggage handler to read and sign the flight papers?

I was once in a meeting where the design of a new uniform was being discussed. The older, more traditional guys were voting for the old style uniforms with the usual gold braid on the sleeve and oak leaves on the hat. One of the "new" generation gave his derisive opinion that he did not want to look like a South American General. He was silenced by one of the old crowd who remarked "Let me tell you from experience, when you are in a chaotic South American airport and you have a job to do that is exactly how you do need to look."

And yes, the uniform of an airline crew member does "outrank" the overalls of a garbage collector. This is not to say that the crew member is a better man, or more deserving, than the garbage collector but it means that if one of them is taking on the responsibility for the aircraft and its passenger and the other is removing old newspapers then darn right, in that time and space, the man in uniform outranks the man in overalls.

Sorry snowflake but you have to live with reality.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5629 Post by John Hill » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:35 am

boing wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:14 am
And yes, the uniform of an airline crew member does "outrank" the overalls of a garbage collector. This is not to say that the crew member is a better man, or more deserving, than the garbage collector but it means.....

What it does mean that if the garbage men were wearing fancy military or police uniforms folks like Ben would
openly praise them for their service in the same vein I am often praised for my 30 years with USAF. The relationship is a virtuous spiral of mutual admiration.

You are adoring the uniform and not admiring the man.
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5630 Post by boing » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:20 am

John,
You are adoring the uniform and not admiring the man.
With 40 years of combined military and civilian flying time I assure you I am perfectly capable of telling the difference between the man and the uniform. The uniform is only a badge. It is the fact that the man inside it showed enough guts and perseverance to earn it that matters. That is what you do not seem to understand. Not only did he earn the uniform he earned those wings on his left breast. Been there, done that, know the system, know its value.

Would I be happy to fly with Ben? Well he seems to have some rather rigid ideas but that would not be a first, however if things got really sticky it might be nice to have a guy like Ben along co's I get the feeling he would fight all the way.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5631 Post by John Hill » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:52 am

So where does this leave the man with the blue coveralls? When are you going to invite him to join the "virtuous spiral of mutual admiration"?
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5632 Post by FD2 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:08 am

Even the Chinese PLA had to give in and restore rank badges on their uniforms:

The 1984 Military Service Law stipulated that military ranks would be reintroduced to the PLA. Military leaders justified the restoration of ranks as improving organization, discipline, and morale and facilitating coordinated operations among different arms and services, thus serving to modernize and regularize the military. The PLA's experience in the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese border war, in which the absence of ranks led to confusion on the battlefield, was another factor leading to the restoration of ranks. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... iforms.htm

The North Koreans have gone a step or fifty further and bedeck themselves with the most amazing display of medals and decorations, so uniforms and rank display are also part of a left wing ideology as well as the western fascist versions, John.

The bin man/woman wears overalls to keep himself/herself or their clothes clean and free from smelly stains, so they can be washed at the end of the day. His overalls are not a 'uniform' any more than overalls I wear when painting the house, but it would be an unworthy person who disrespected a bin man because they thought him beneath consideration because of the 'lowly' work he does. Of course it is important work but perhaps not as important as the man or woman who commands a nuclear bomber or submarine. It's just a matter of a sense of perspective isn't it?

btw my bin is emptied by one man in a big truck who uses an automatic grab to pick the bin up and empty it into the vehicle. He just wears his own clothes as he doesn't come into contact with the bin contents.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5633 Post by Slasher » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:25 am

Airline rank is an appointment. Being a captain is an appointment. Being a F/O is an appointment even if he presently qualifies for being a captain. However for crew purposes ‘Captain’ is a rank.

As I understand it a commissioned officer upon retirement from the military has the right to retain his rank (e.g. Sqn Ldr (Ret’d) Timothy Bartholomew Ex-Ascot). A civilian appointment does not. I used to laugh at these ex-airline wankers who listed themselves “Capt” in the telephone book. Big watch small dick most of ‘em.

Maybe it’s my Oz egalitarian genes but I never regarded my airline uniform as anything special. I could walk around in overalls or a t-shirt and thong - wouldn’t make a shred of difference to me. Only useful practical thing my uniform ever did do was bypass all the customs and immigration ***** while wearing it.

One thing I learnt very early in life: death is the Great Leveller. When the Reaper comes a knockin’ he doesn’t care whether you are an ex-airline captain or an ex-garbo. All the same to him. It’s how you’re remembered after you kark it that’s important.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5634 Post by John Hill » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:31 am

I think the bin person here wears white overalls complete with hi-vis stripes, corporation name on the back and their name on the front. The bin people carry out an essential task every work day of their lives but how many in fancy 'uniforms' can make that claim?
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5635 Post by Slasher » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:39 am

John Hill wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:31 am
The bin people carry out an essential task every work day of their lives
Dead true. And a **** job to endure too for crap pay.

Look at a sustained airline strike and a sustained garbo strike to see which makes one hell of an impact.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5636 Post by John Hill » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:42 am

Next week when the garbos come down our street I am going to put on my old uniform and try Ben's "virtuous spiral of mutual admiration".
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5637 Post by boing » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:56 am

John,

I hate to break this to you but the guy in blue coveralls doesn't get to join TGIF in the Mess. We might meet the guy in blue overalls at our local tavern where all consideration of dress and position are ignored (not just conveniently hidden) and we could have a great time but he cannot join in talk of g-force and pulling to the stall because he has never experienced it. In fact it is more likely that a pilot would relate to his job rather than he to theirs since many pilots went the temporary manual labour route before enlistment, I certainly did.

Aviation provides us with so many experiences that cannot be explained to anyone outside the job, doctor, attorney, Fortune 500 executive, try it, all you get is what they saw at the movies or a blank stare, so it is better to keep these things in the club. As far as the "mutual admiration" goes, boy, you had better earn it because, first, you do not succeed in BS'ing your peers because they do the same job as you and would recognise tall stories immediately and second, even more direct and amusing, there is no point in telling a story about how great your last approach and landing was because the guy who is sitting next to you in the bar was sitting next to you in the aircraft at the time.

I knew at least one pilot, when asked what he did for a living, said he drove an 18 wheeler - which is exactly what a 747 is. He just couldn't stand the tiresome explanations.

Now, that doesn't mean we treat someone outside the club with disrespect. Being practical people we should be able to recognise the value in most trades, oddly I think most pilots value people from "hands on" trades more than those from white collar jobs because many are do-it-yourselfers and they recognise the skills required.

So John, high marks for encouraging real human respect for each other but that does not mean we have to loan our uniforms for use in digging a trench.

Oh, sorry John, I did not realise that the musicians are all in uniform.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5638 Post by John Hill » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:14 am

I dont bother about TGIF in the Mess but I expect if I should venture there they might find I know more about their job than they do mine.
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5639 Post by boing » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:59 am

John, you really are such a Snowflake, you spend so much of your time defending your perceived and imaginary disadvantaged when you really have no idea about how they are themselves thinking. OK, a ditch digger works in a mucky trench for part of the day (although nowadays I doubt if they do more than touch a shovel for the details the excavator can't get to). On the other hand, if they have a Council job they will be paid at Union rates, enjoy great benefits and look forward to a good retirement package. They do not have to commute to work and be away from home day and night for half of the month, they did not incur enormous training costs to get their present job and they don't risk the hole they are in being a smoky one. They did not need to leave school in the top 10% to even qualify for an interview for their job and to have the good fortune to be adequately fit never mind all of the drug test problems etc..

In all reality the ditch digger probably could never have reached the education requirements they would need even if they had the opportunity and they probably think they have a great job compared with most. They can even move sideways to better employment without losing most of what they worked for and you feel sorry for them and imagine that they should be upset over the fact that they do not have a shiny uniform and access into an elite group of people. People who are elite by skill level and training not by birth, elite because they are part of a very small fraction of the population that can do their job.

To give you a perspective and mildly relate it to the original thread intent I will mention the figures a friend of mine calculated in an idle moment. He found out that the US had about 1.1 million people qualified as medical doctors, surprisingly only a few more, 1.25 million as attorneys, there were 600,000 commercial pilots of all classifications. He then calculated approximately that in the WHOLE WORLD there were only about 5,000 people potentially qualified as 747 Captains. So, most pilots don't make a big deal about this but the ones that do have every right to feel proud of their elite status and their uniform and only an irrational individual would think otherwise so stop whining and let Ben get on with his mutual admiration society.


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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5640 Post by John Hill » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:54 am

The uncomfortable truth Boing is that you are failing to respect the man in the blue overalls purely out of prejudice. For all you know he might be a wounded veteran who for what ever reason has taken a job 'on the bins'.

Do not deny respect due to a person who wears common work clothes and always bear in mind that a uniform is the favourite clothes of fakes, incompetents, poseurs and general bastards.
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