The US Hamster Wheel

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Slasher

Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5661 Post by Slasher » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm

Pleasantly surprised to see you giving coherent debate John instead of snidey one liners. Well done. I mean it. 👍🏻

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5662 Post by John Hill » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:54 pm

boing wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:28 am

You will be pleased to know I am going to be "off the air" for a few days since our internet infrastructure is being totally replaced. See you later.
.
Oh dear! That is a bugger,https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... ficer.html

see you when you get back.

John
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5663 Post by barkingmad » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:01 am

This certainly is a Hamster Wheel but not a lot of US being discussed & dissected.

November 2019 and POTUS is staring down the gun barrel of impeachment and yet we’re treated to the online equivalent of a playground spat between J H and his opponents, all of them chasing each other around the wheel with great energy expended and wonderful arguments offered.

Maybe the pilot v the refuse collector with/without uniforms belongs in another place as the current dispute is devaluing and debasing what was an interesting thread.

So time for the children to gather up their toys and catapults and feck off home, wash their hands and sit down to dinner with some adults? [-X

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5664 Post by bob2s » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:23 pm

Can't do that barking I still have half a bowl of pop corn left!!

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5665 Post by barkingmad » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:45 pm

Bob2s. In the olden days the cinema announced “There will now be a short intermission. Sales staff will visit all parts of the theatre”.

Whereupon a lass with tray suspended with a neck strap and battery light would wander around selling Kia-Ora orange juice, ice creams and more popcorn.

Which gave rise to the Monty Python sketch with Gannet Ripple ice cream and Stormy Petrel on a stick and the frequent call of Albatross!

Hang on to your popcorn, the curtains are about to open again............. :YMAPPLAUSE:

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5666 Post by boing » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:58 am

Sorry BM.

As punishment to myself I forced myself to attempt to review all of the prior deeply intellectual and informed comments about Donald Trump and the state of America in this thread. I must admit that I gave up the task having reviewed the posts all the way back to page 240. I promise to hold myself to the standard established by these historic and thought provoking comments. It should not be very difficult.


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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5667 Post by barkingmad » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:56 am

boing, thank you for your confession, take 1 Our Father, 3 Hail Marys and resolve never to abuse yourself again.

Peace on you, my boy! =))

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5668 Post by John Hill » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:12 pm

And the news today "Huckerbeast joins Faux"!
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5669 Post by Boac » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:16 pm

Humpty tells us that his daughter, Ivanka, has created '14 million jobs' in 2 1/2 years. Amazing. Since the Humpty government has only created 6 million jobs since coming into office, the US obviously has the wrong POTUS. Vote for Ivanka in 2020!
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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5670 Post by llondel » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:30 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:16 pm
Humpty tells us that his daughter, Ivanka, has created '14 million jobs' in 2 1/2 years. Amazing. Since the Humpty government has only created 6 million jobs since coming into office, the US obviously has the wrong POTUS. Vote for Ivanka in 2020!
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The scary thing is that his long term plans, once he wins 2020 by a landslide, is for her to stand in 2024 and continue the dynasty.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5671 Post by Boac » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:01 am

Well, at least she would do better for the American workers?

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5672 Post by boing » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:07 pm

The economic divisions in the US are far more complex than certain posters seem to understand. The UK system is simple in comparison. In the US we have Federal taxes and a Federal tax code but since under the Constitution the States themselves have certain defined powers the individual States can also levy taxes and this taxing ability then descends through the Counties in the State and also down to the cities.

The result of this is;

Corporations fish around for the most favourable tax location for new plants and this often triggers competitions between States to offer special tax benefits to the corporations in order to gain the benefits (??) of increased employment.

You can alter your individual tax liability greatly by relocating your home, sometimes by just a few miles. I live just south of a river that is the State boundary. If I moved the other side of the river the tax situation is reversed. In my State we have income tax but no sales tax. In the State to the north they have sales tax but no income tax. The result is that people north of the State border live with no income tax but shop over the river with no sales tax. This, of course, means that the shopper has a great deal but that retailers north of the river have a relatively poor time. ;)))

I have a friend who made himself a millionaire over night (well, not quite over night as far as the cash in the bank goes but that is all the time it took for his idea). He sat down to breakfast, read the city newspaper and saw that taxes on business in the large city he lived in were going to increase greatly (a notoriously socialist city). He was not impecunious at this point so he did have credibility and so he dressed immediately, hit all of the banks and other businesses that could reasonably lend him money and then took leases on all of the business property he could get his hands on JUST OVER THE BORDER FROM THE CITY LIMITS. Then he sat back, watched businesses relocate and the money roll in.

Worker pay rates are distorted for the same work in various locations since paychecks in certain areas must be much higher than in other areas because of taxes and real estate prices. This leads to a cyclic pattern of businesses relocating to get the lowest taxes and labour costs.

The point is that the Federal government can make tax changes that generally effect all States fairly equally but since the Federal effect is equally spread it is often the State policies that determine what businesses do and how workers are effected. So, the media and Federal politicians can claim what they like about how employment and worker income is determined by their brilliant strategies but the whole process is really driven by State taxes, desirability to live in a certain location or transportation infrastructure and labour costs.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5673 Post by Slasher » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:39 pm

Boing just wondering. Have you given up your U.S.A. citizenship and opted to become an American National with citizenry of the state of your choice?

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5674 Post by boing » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:09 pm

It used to be that you had to renounce your previous citizenship to become an American citizen but now you can be a dual citizen. It is cynically viewed that this change was pushed through by the Jewish lobby. Immigration gets pretty upset if you are one nationality outbound and another inbound and they can track these movements.

Once you become a US citizen or indeed a registered alien you can live where you like in the US. Other visas may not allow this freedom in duration or location, I don't know. Very early on in my immigration proceedings I had to drop by the local Post Office weekly and check in but this was only for 6 weeks until I got a proper Green Card.

I am a full US citizen with the ability to hold a second passport which I did for several years whilst going in and out of the US and nobody questioned this. My UK passport expired but I will renew it just in case.

An important point I must make is that I never experienced any comments about taking "real" Americans' flying jobs even when it was pretty tough to get hired at all. First night with the Guys, down to the bar and into all the old "there I was" stories with hands swooping through the air. As you have probably learned the average American may have some odd ideas but they are great as people.

I just re-read your post and realized you may be making a joke but there are several States that do wish they could split up between their various social/economic areas, notably California. However, under the Articles of Confederation most States are tied to the Union. Some States, notably Texas, claim the right to secede and I suppose become mini-countries but how practical this would be who knows.

I think the most popular split that most rural people would accept is a north/south line through the central US to divide east and west with the suggestion that Canada should do the same thing and amalgamate the western portions so that the dividing line between the US and Canada lay north/ south rather than east/west.

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the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5675 Post by Slasher » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:26 pm

No that’s not what I meant.

An American can renounce U.S. citizenship and instead become a citizen in any of the states listed under the Republic, thus becoming an American national. The only tax payable are state income taxes. Any American (unless actually living within the 10 mile radius of Washington DC and the Territories and has declared so) under the Constitution is not bound to pay Federal income tax.

It’s a bit complicated but the Yanks working with my old mob are almost all nationals. Their citizenship is mainly NH to which they never visit nor bring any money into. A good 777 mate of mine is a Texas citizen as he’s actually a Texan.

Congress officially refers to the Republic (i.e. united States*) as “countries”. The United States (of America) is a Democracy.

* note small u and capital S.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5676 Post by boing » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:16 am

After a quick ask around I can find no person who would agree that what you suggest is possible.

OK, I did some searching.
(2) Historically, Congress, through statutes, granted U.S. non-citizen nationality to persons born or inhabiting territory acquired by the United States through conquest or treaty. At one time or other natives and certain other residents of Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, the Philippines, Guam, and the Panama Canal Zone were U.S. non-citizen nationals. (See 7 FAM 1120.)

(3) Under current law, only persons born in American Samoa and Swains Island are U.S. non-citizen nationals (INA 101(a)(29) (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(29) and INA 308(1) (8 U.S.C. 1408)). (See 7 FAM 1125.)
[SOURCE: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf]
The loophole that people are hoping exists gets its basis here,
The United States is made up of 50 states, the District of Columbia and 16 territories. Five of these territories are permanently inhabited.

They are the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa. More than four million people live in them.

Except for American Samoa, people born in these territories automatically become U.S. citizens. They have many of the same rights as other U.S. citizens; however, they may not vote for president, and they do not pay federal taxes.
Having listened to hundreds of pilots moaning about Federal taxes I have never heard that idea suggested before. I am highly skeptical that it would be possible to live in the US itself under those terms but it may work for expats, but I''m guessing that they had better have everything organised if they return to the US.

The only place I can find this idea seriously accepted is in rather wacky ultra-freedom web sites.



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the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

Slasher

Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5677 Post by Slasher » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:43 am

You’ll find no one agreeing as it’s extremely difficult to get one’s head around a thing like this, everything from wording to capital lettering. But the proof is in my Yank buddies’ puddings.

It’s not until they became expats that they realized they’d been duped into paying Federal taxes all their lives. My Texan mate goes home to the state once a month and brings in enough salary for he and his family to get by comfortably. The rest he keeps offshore. He’s ok with Texan taxes. The whole fam are American nationals so it is possible to live in America and not pay Federal tax.

One thing to remember is that the United States federally will NEVER tell the locals their tax rights that exist under the Constitution. IRAs, W8s etc always state next to the signature line that you are a US Citizen or US person. That’s how the bastards catch you. American nationals have to be very careful signing anything with this as they will perjure themselves and thus liable to Federal income tax.

Anyway I posed the same question much earlier in this thread and in greater detail to Ben There, with supporting evidential YouTube vids of Dan Smoot. You can look it up if you’re interested. I don’t want to clog up the thread with this aside topic.

Edit: good luck.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5678 Post by boing » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:22 am

I'll check on that but if this was such a great idea then the millions of tax attorneys and CPAs in the US would be selling the idea to their clients and the legal precedents would exist. If I can find a court ruling I would be convinced but until then I think that this is something the IRS would have stamped on tout-suite. There are all sorts of US groups trying to dodge taxes and it usually takes a lawsuit, or a jail-term, to provide the answer.

I have a smart taxman, I will ask him tomorrow.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5679 Post by llondel » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:49 am

boing wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:09 pm
It used to be that you had to renounce your previous citizenship to become an American citizen but now you can be a dual citizen. It is cynically viewed that this change was pushed through by the Jewish lobby. Immigration gets pretty upset if you are one nationality outbound and another inbound and they can track these movements.
This has sort of evolved over time. The US oath of allegiance requires one to renounce all previous allegiances, which was always held as "give up your previous citizenship".

However, there have been cases where US citizens have lost their US citizenship without realising what they'd done, some of whom got it reinstated by the Supreme Court, some not. The official US position now is that it doesn't matter what you say to other countries or do there[*], the only way you can lose your US citizenship is to go to an appropriate US official and tell them, presumably with a bunch of paperwork too. The argument then goes that the converse should also be true - there are countries that take the same approach that it doesn't matter what you say to the US government, the other country still considers you to be one of their citizens. I think that what you get now is just a warning that if you hold dual citizenship, the US can't help you out if you get into trouble in your other country of citizenship.


[*] OK, terrorist actions seem to have generated a loophole in this.

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Re: The US Hamster Wheel

#5680 Post by ian16th » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:35 am

llondel wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:49 am

The official US position now is that it doesn't matter what you say to other countries or do there[*], the only way you can lose your US citizenship is to go to an appropriate US official and tell them, presumably with a bunch of paperwork too.
And pay a slack hand full of money!

Boris Johnson had to jump through this hoop. He is an 'accidental US citizen' as he was born there. The US taxman attempted to bill him for some sort of capital gains tax when he sold a house in London.
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