Venezuela

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John Hill
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Re: Venezuela

#21 Post by John Hill » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:05 am

Why did you place food into the hands of locals instead of through official channels?
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Re: Venezuela

#22 Post by obgraham » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:50 pm

John Hill wrote:Why did you place food into the hands of locals instead of through official channels?

Because as I said above, it wouldn't get there through "official channels".

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Re: Venezuela

#23 Post by John Hill » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:31 pm

Seems like you were practicingsocialism.
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Re: Venezuela

#24 Post by obgraham » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:57 pm

Once again, John, you've got things wrong:

Giving my resources to people who have less is called "charity" or "altruism".

Government taking my resources and redistributing them to who they think deserves them: that's "socialism". (Previously well described by one M. Thatcher, and currently going on in the subject of this silly exchange, Venezuela.)

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Re: Venezuela

#25 Post by John Hill » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:10 pm

So you do not want stuff distributed through a commercial distribution system you want to decide who are the deserving and hand stuff out to them while they sit in their mud huts making more babies, you are a socialist in drag.

On second thoughts, you are really not a socialist. You want your government to take from the long suffering american taxpayers and hand that money to the mega farmers for food that you distribute to those you decide deserve it. I am sure there is a word for that too.
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Re: Venezuela

#26 Post by obgraham » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:49 pm

This has to be one of the stupidest exchanges I've ever been involved in, John.
Sayonara.

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Re: Venezuela

#27 Post by John Hill » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:47 pm

Thats the trouble with food aid, any international aid for that matter, it is very difficult to describe exactly what it is that is being done and why.
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Re: Venezuela

#28 Post by BenThere » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:20 am

A big problem with government to government aid programs from rich nations to poor ones is the inevitable skimming of the aid by the autocrats ruling the poor nations to such an extent that a small portion of it ends up in the hands of the needy. obgraham's method ensured, first hand, that real people were actually being helped, not the rulers controlling distribution. And the process is charity, not socialism. Charity is the noble sharing of one's bounty. Socialism is the involuntary taking of one's assets and productivity and giving it to another who hasn't done so well, a method that does not work in the long run, as proven every single time it has been tried.

Back in the day, before big government and its well-intentioned programs to eliminate poverty, but which only increased it, families took care of their own, and community organizations, many of them religion-based and inspired (God forbid!) did a better job of seeing to human needs than today's government structure. In addition, we didn't have today's urban nightmares, the inception of which coincided with the implementation of the welfare state.

Throughout history, people who have done well have shown a proclivity to share without government coercion and confiscation. I think our movement along the socialist continuum, government-enforced, frankly, has been detrimental to all concerned.

The fate of Venezuela is a poignant case in point.

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Re: Venezuela

#29 Post by Cacophonix » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:26 am

BenThere wrote:A big problem with government to government aid programs from rich nations to poor ones is the inevitable skimming of the aid by the autocrats ruling the poor nations to such an extent that a small portion of it ends up in the hands of the needy. obgraham's method ensured, first hand, that real people were actually being helped, not the rulers controlling distribution. And the process is charity, not socialism. Charity is the noble sharing of one's bounty. Socialism is the involuntary taking of one's assets and productivity and giving it to another who hasn't done so well, a method that does not work in the long run, as proven every single time it has been tried.

Back in the day, before big government and its well-intentioned programs to eliminate poverty, but which only increased it, families took care of their own, and community organizations, many of them religion-based and inspired (God forbid!) did a better job of seeing to human needs than today's government structure. In addition, we didn't have today's urban nightmares, the inception of which coincided with the implementation of the welfare state.

Throughout history, people who have done well have shown a proclivity to share without government coercion and confiscation. I think our movement along the socialist continuum, government-enforced, frankly, has been detrimental to all concerned.


I am surprised you don't live in **** Venezuela you, you balls-less hypocrite you.

You will come undone in Methico, my American Bandeiro.

Caco

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Re: Venezuela

#30 Post by BenThere » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:31 am

You're surprised I don't live in Venezuela? Are you thick?

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Re: Venezuela

#31 Post by John Hill » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:45 am

Benny, you have a long way to go if you think US foreign aid is primarily about charity.
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Re: Venezuela

#32 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:04 am

JH, my father still remembers the US assistance to my country and vividly tells the story about the food he ate thanks to that program. To put in some perspective a civil war taking place with the local commies trying, by using weapons to make my country a communist one.

I really don't care that I
have a long way to go if I think US foreign aid is primarily about charity.
. I am glad the then government took the US foreign aid and military assistance and stop the commies allowing me to enjoy a decent standard of living - in comparison to people in the Eastern Europe.

So if the US assistance help people to have a better living I am all for it. And if we see a map where US, EU and USSR have gone and their current standard of living it is easy to choose which better for people. Do you prefer to live in Germany or Angola?

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Re: Venezuela

#33 Post by Magnus » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:49 am

Mmmm. Nice ad hom attack there, Caco. You would be emptied from TOP for that.

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Re: Venezuela

#34 Post by BenThere » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:57 pm

There is some good in everyone, Magnus. The nice thing about Caco is that he is easily tweaked and trifled with, which just about always leads to, for him, unfortunate self-exposure.

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Re: Venezuela

#35 Post by Slasher » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:41 am

NEW YORK — Diplomatic relations between U.S. and Venezuela have hit a new low over President Donald Trump's decision to recognize the leader of the South American country's opposition as its legitimate president. But the two countries have long history of interdependency when it comes to oil that has endured through years of political tensions. Trump has long considered imposing sanctions that would block imports of Venezuela oil.
Here's a look at how such a move might affect both countries.
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HOW DEPENDENT IS THE U.S. ON VENEZUELAN OIL IMPORTS?
Venezuelan oil exports to the U.S. have declined steadily over the years, falling particularly sharply over the past decade as its production plummeted amid its long economic and political crisis. The U.S. imported less than 500,000 barrels a day of Venezuelan crude and petroleum products in 2017, down from more than 1.2 million barrels a day in 2008, according to the Energy Information Administration.
"Venezuela production has been rapidly collapsing, so many of the customers of Venezuela have already been adapting to that decline in supply, including in the U.S.," said Francisco Monaldi, fellow in Latin American energy policy at Rice University's Baker Institute.
But Venezuela remains the third-largest supplier of crude oil to the United States, and any disruption of imports would be costly.
In fact, Gulf Coast imports of Venezuelan crude oil jumped last summer, in part because of the tightening heavy-crude market, according to an S&P Global Platts report that cited U.S. Customs data.
Still, the long-term trend is a declining dependence on Venezuelan oil. East Coast refineries have not imported Venezuelan crude since 2017, according the S&P report.
The U.S. government could lessen the blow by phasing in restrictions on Venezuelan oil imports in a way that mirrors the trend U.S. refineries have already long been adjusting to, said John Auers, executive vice president of the refining consultancy Turner, Mason & Company.
In 2017, the most recent year that data was available, Venezuela accounted for about 6 percent of U.S. crude imports.
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HOW WOULD THE U.S. REPLACE VENEZUELAN OIL?
There's no shortage of oil in the world right now, with global supplies hitting a record last summer. The International Energy Agency said in September that the global oil supply reached 100 million barrels a day for the first time ever in August, boosted by rising production in the U.S. and several OPEC nations. A report from the American Petroleum Institute on Thursday said that the U.S. has surplus gasoline stockpiles that "could approach burdensome levels" and force gas prices down further.
But supply is tighter for heavy crude oil, which is what the U.S. imports from Venezuela. Production of heavy crude in Mexico has been declining, and although there is a strong supply in Canada, there are challenges to getting that crude to the Gulf Coast refineries.
"There's not enough pipes to ship all the oil that companies have been producing," said Jim Burkhard, vice president of oil markets research at IHS Markit.
The U.S. could end up having to import some of that heavy crude from the Middle East, adding transportation costs.
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WHAT U.S. BUSINESSES WOULD BE MOST AFFECTED BY AN EMBARGO?
Refineries along the Gulf Coast are set up to process heavy crude and they may end up spending more money buying it elsewhere. Valero and Citgo are among the largest importers of Venezuelan crude.
Any sanctions would come just as the global market for heavy crude is tightening. OPEC's latest production cuts tightened the supply of heavy crude from Saudi Arabia.
"The scarcity of heavy oil in the Gulf Coast will increase the price, plus the fact that you have to import from a place like Iraq, makes it a little costlier," Monaldi said.
The American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers, which represents 95 percent of the refining sector, has lobbied hard over the past two years against any attempts to restrict imports of Venezuelan oil. Gulf Coast refineries depended on Venezuelan heavy crude for about a quarter of its imports, according to data from the EIA.
Other industries that rely heavily on oil may feel impacts.
"The big oil companies, the shale producers, will benefit a bit," said Michael Lynch, president of Strategic Energy & Economic Research Inc. "The airlines and the trucking companies will lose a bit because they'll be paying more for fuel."
___
WOULD GAS PRICES GO UP?
Consumers probably won't feel much pain at the pump. While a cutoff of Venezuelan imports would raise prices for refiners in the Gulf Coast, the market is competitive enough that producers are unlikely to pass along much of the cost to consumers, experts said.
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HOW WOULD SANCTIONS AFFECT VENEZUELA?
Venezuela is very reliant on the U.S. for its oil revenue. The country sends 41 percent of its oil exports to the U.S. Critically, U.S. refiners are among the few customers that pay cash to Venezuela for its oil. That's because Venezuela's oil shipments to China and Russia are usually taken as repayment for billions of dollars in debts.
"Most of the cash that the Venezuelan government gets comes from the U.S. market, so that means they will have to figure out how to ask the Chinese to get some cash back, because otherwise they will be starved for cash," Monaldi said.

Source: AP

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Re: Venezuela

#36 Post by 1DC » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:18 pm

When i was at sea, about 1960, i went to Pakistan and was told about an American ship discharging bagged grain as Aid to Pakistan from the USA. The grain was being discharged to quay, the bags were stencilled and then loaded on to trucks to go for distribution. After a few days a chap came down from the American consul and suddenly all hell broke loose. Apparently the people stencilling the bags had no right to be there and were stencilling(in the local lingo) Aid from the Soviet Union on each bag...

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Re: Venezuela

#37 Post by OFSO » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:49 pm

In, I think, The Quiet American, there's a description of grain from the USA arriving in Vietnam and the sacks being stencilled locally "A Gift From Your Friends In The USSR." The Americans there could not read Vietnamese and it took some time for them to be informed.

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Re: Venezuela

#38 Post by John Hill » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:57 am

Far too often the motive behind international aid has little to do with the recipients.

Suppose country 'A' has a bad year and the harvests fail, country 'B' steps up and offers a thousand tons of grain aid and everyone applauds. Eventually the grain lands at the port and everyone is happy and what happens to the grain is anyone's guess. However the motives behind the donation have been met, the farmers who grew the grain have been paid, the shippers have got their share. Another successful transfer from the taxpayers' pockets to the more deserving.
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Re: Venezuela

#39 Post by AtomKraft » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:47 am

I live and work in Kazakhstan these days. It was certainly communist here before, when part of the USSR. I don't think the character of the country has changed much since then, although 'socialist' fits better these days than communist.

So, what's it like living and working in such a place?

People spend a lot of time covering their asses.
Folk are generally afraid of the state.
People are mostly if not poor, then certainly not rich. But a tiny minority are fabulously wealthy.
There is little crime, because folk are terrified of 'getting into trouble'. I've never even seen anyone run a light.
The only crime I've personally encountered was when three men tried to make me give them money. They were police.
Corruption is widespread.
Political power is concentrated, and there is no opposition, but to be fair it seems to work ok. There are many decent schemes to help individuals prepared to make an effort.
Compared to the UK, which seems to be constantly in a war with someone, there's nothing like that here. It's peaceful.

A number of Venezuelans are also living and working here, having been forced to leave their own country.

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Re: Venezuela

#40 Post by OFSO » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:53 am

Pot calls kettle black.
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