Spain heads for destruction

[OFSO]

Given that:

The Catalan President Carlos Puigdemont has announced that the Catalan Referendum on separating from Spain will be held on October 1st 2017.

The Spanish President Mariano Rajoy has stated that the Referendum is an illegal act and will be stopped "no matter what it takes" and that "the Spanish Army is the ultimate defender of Spanish unity".

The European Commission has said it has nothing to do with the idea of a free Catalunia. The EU has warned Catalunia not to try and separate from Spain and if it does separate, it will not be allowed to remain a member of the EU.

Possible scenarios

1) Rajoy will make good his threats; the Guardia Civil and the Army will disarm the Catalan police force, seize the ballot boxes and arrest everyone they find associated with the Referendum. Consequence: in act if not in name Spain reverts to a military dictatorship with weak civilian leadership fronting for extremist elements in the Spanish army.

2) The Referendum will not be impeded. This makes Madrid complicit in that they knew an illegal act was planned and did nothing to stop it.

2.1) The result of the Referendum is a 'no' vote to separation. Madrid will be overjoyed. We can all go back to sleep.

2.2) The result of the referendum is a 'yes' vote to separation. Rajoy will make good a second set of threats and disenfranchise Catalunia as an autonomous region of Spain, using force to take over institutions. I have no idea what the other areas of Spain would do. Rajoy is very popular in Galacia, for example.

In the event of 2.2 happening:

2.2.1) There will be an uprising in Catalunia against Spain (highly unlikely)
2.2.2) The Catalans will start arguing leading to fighting each other (quite possible: read "Homage to Catalunia" by George Orwell.)
2.2.3) Everyone will go back to sleep and it will all be forgotten.

Ain't we having fun !

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The UN on the Right of Self Determination
http://www.unpo.org/article/4957
worth a read.

while claims to cultural autonomy may be more readily recognized by states, claims to independence are more likely to be rejected by them. Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments.

My italics.
In other words, neither the EU or Spain have any legal right to stop a referendum, since all those Governments within the EU have signed up to the UN Charter. It's Article I.
However, the EU is correct that Catalunia would have no automatic right of membership of the EU, much as was the case with the Scottish referendum.

[BenThere]

I instinctively support self-determination along with devolving governmental authority to the most local level possible. Perhaps there is a compromise solution where an acceptable level of autonomy is relinquished by Spain in return for a semblance of federal unity.

I stand with my hat removed when people fight for their Freedom and independence.

[Alisoncc]

I stand with my hat removed when people fight for their Freedom and independence.

I would suggest that the probability of conflict is in a direct relationship to the number of individual self-governing states. The more states the greater the probability of them beating sh*t out of each other over innocuous comments and actions. But then again Ben, you have always come across as a war-monger.

Need to think through your thoughts. Just suppose individual States in the US choose to secede from the union, forming military alliances. On second thoughts might have a civilising effect, but only after a century or so of internal conflict. Might learn that carrying guns and having the ability to kill one another over some imagined slight does little for a pleasant life.

Alison

[ExSp33db1rd]

I stand with my hat removed when people fight for their Freedom and independence.

Last night I saw the film Viceroy House, about the partition of India into India and Pakistan in 1947.

Rolling credits at the end ... quote. Over 1 million died and 14 million were displaced.

[obgraham]

Clearly the various sectors of Iberia that dont much like each other have battled violently before, and I suspect will do it again if separation seems imminent.

My colleague Ben is forgetting the huge cost it took to persuade America not to break up once before even though a terrible issue separated them then. We don't need any more of that, especially when there are other pressing threats to civilized society.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Home Rule for Yorkshire !!

[OFSO]

As a complete outsider I do admire the federal structure of the USA. This would of course be a solution for Spain, but the present PM Rajoy - backed by the King - would never countenance it.

More nasty talk on the TV this morning, Sunday. Catalan politicians pointing out they have tried every approach to a dialog with Madrid. Every possible solution rejected. Spanish PM simply says no way to a referendum.

[ian16th]

Home Rule for Yorkshire !!

We at least have enough 1st class cricket ground to host our home Test Series.

Oh, and more than enough players

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

As a former member of the North Yorkshire Air Defence forces, I see little reason why I should risk my life for the sake of the People's Republic of South Yorkshire. Bloody Communists!

Home Rule for North Yorkshire!

[Woody]

Well that's unusual for a football manager to get involved in politics.

Manchester City manager Pep Guardiola has joined thousands of protesters in Barcelona to call for independence for the Spanish region of Catalonia.
He made a strong plea for voters to take part in an independence referendum scheduled for 1 October.
"We will vote, even if the Spanish state doesn't want it," Guardiola told the crowd. "There is no other way."
Surveys suggest Catalan voters would narrowly reject independence, though most favour holding a referendum.
On Friday, Catalonia regional government leader Carles Puigdemont decided to hold the vote later this year, in defiance of the government and contravening a ruling by Spain's Constitutional Court.
It is not clear if the referendum will go ahead.

[ian16th]

As a former member of the North Yorkshire Air Defence forces, I see little reason why I should risk my life for the sake of the People's Republic of South Yorkshire. Bloody Communists!

Home Rule for North Yorkshire!

I trust that you mean the North Riding!
Which is where my birth certificate says that I was born.

[ExSp33db1rd]

People's Republic of South Yorkshire.

Riding - a Third Part, hence there was never a South Riding, except in the imagination of Winifred Holtby, author of a novel of that name ( never read it ) the present abomination is the product of boundary reform many years ago.

Bring back the West Riding I say.

[BenThere]

My colleague Ben is forgetting the huge cost it took to persuade America not to break up once before even though a terrible issue separated them then.

Remember also, ob, that there had to be a breaking off from England.

But then again Ben, you have always come across as a war-monger.

I'm disturbed you view me in that light, Alison. I've studied war a great deal, and participated in two of them, three if you count the Cold War. I can point out many cases where it was weakness that led to catastrophic war. But I doubt you would be interested. Calling me a war monger is serious and undeserved.

In your view, who was the war monger - Chaimberlain or Churchill?

[ian16th]

In your view, who was the war monger - Chaimberlain or Churchill?

Chamberlain started it and Churchill finished it!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Ian16th, North Riding, yes.
My mum was born in the East Riding (above a chip shop, no less!), which was successfully resurrected from the Government's attempt to make it North Humberside, not least by everyone still addressing post to East Riding.

Oddly enough, Canada has 338 Ridings (it's what they call constituencies over here).

[ian16th]

A short story.

I moved back to Gods own country in 1974, just a week or so before the bureaucrats redrew the map of Yorkshire.

I was to work from an office on the eastern side of Leeds and we found a house in Tadcaster.

Tadcaster was in the West Riding, but the next week was changing to the new North Yorkshire. So I decides to keep life simple and not tell the car tax people until the new regime took over.

When I arrive at the car tax shop, they told me that I needn't have waited as the car tax and number plate system was ignoring the new councils.

[ian16th]

Ian16th, North Riding, yes.
My mum was born in the East Riding (above a chip shop, no less!), which was successfully resurrected from the Government's attempt to make it North Humberside, not least by everyone still addressing post to East Riding.

Oddly enough, Canada has 338 Ridings (it's what they call constituencies over here).

The whole north and south Humberside was purely a GPO invention!
When it was invented Humberside was a county council.

This was a problem for the GPO as mail for Lincolnshire was taken off the main line trains at Grantham, but for Hull & the East Riding it was taken off at Doncaster.
So the GPO invented North and South Humberside!

Besides being a Masham barley wine type drink, anyone know what a Peculiar is?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Masham had (until 1845) a Peculier status. This is a technical term in the Church of England, meaning it was not under the jurisdiction of the local Bishop (Ripon, I think), but the Archbishop (York). I believe this was due to its having the sheep market which serviced both Jervaulx and Fountains Abbeys. It was therefore nabbed by York because of the huge profits, but said Archbish couldn't be arsed to run the place directly (too far away) so it was designated a Peculier.

n.b. These things are usually spelt 'Peculiar', but Peculier is the unique, traditional local spelling.

Some Peculiars report direct to the Monarch. Westminster Abbey is one of those.

Here Endeth The Lesson

Fox3 - formerly sponsored by Theakston's, and latterly at a school with rights to an annual service in Westminster Abbey (the last one before Remembrance Day Sunday)

[Bob]

I moved back to Gods own country in 1974,

Iv'e often wondered about this saying

I once lived in a hilltop enclave named Devil's Meadow, but people would tell me I was in God's own country, further experience showed it is any and all countries in the world, solely depending on who is making the comment. (which makes sense if you're into that sort of god being omnipresent and omnipositional sort of bollox, but then why wouldn't you just say "God's own Planet/solar system/universe"?)

I wonder if anyone considers themselves to be living in a right shithole of a place never visited by the great one? (actually don't need an answer to that one)