Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#161 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:33 am

From what I've seen of the Provincial Government, there's no less corruption here than anywhere else, more in some respects. We have the autonomy of any Province, but this is not always a good thing when your Provincial Government is being corrupt or incompetent, and you can't take that to a higher level.
I think the good stewardship comes from the rural nature of the Province. Most people are naturally tidy here, and there are regular cleanups organised by groups, plus just general care. I mow my shoulder of the highway, but I also do the shoulder of my neighbour as I know he hasn't a lawn tractor, and halfway up the next field, at which point I've noticed the next neighbour with a lawn tractor turns round. We've never met; there's just an unconscious agreement to split the work for the public benefit. It was the same at my last residence. And as part of the mowing, I stop to pick up the occasional roadside trash, such as it is. I think general cleanliness is very much influenced by the general cleanliness. That is, if the place looks clean and everyone seems to care, then the average person responds to that, and similarly with a trashy environment. I've seen it in schools a lot with kids - most people implicitly follow the general example, and will do so quite quickly when they change environments. Good example is a powerful thing.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#162 Post by BenThere » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:25 pm

I travel to Windsor, Ontario several times a year, usually to attend a concert and spend the night at Caesars Windsor. Caesars has an outstanding concert hall, seating 1500 or so, and books acts that I want to see. This year we saw Steely Dan, Boz Scaggs, and a few other shows - not prime time but the tickets are reasonable, we eat at a fine steak house at the hotel, sleep in and go home, 30 minutes away, in the morning.

We also stop at the duty free on US reentry and buy some maple syrup, Crown Royal, and Cadbury chocolates we can't get at home. Our Canadian treks are a treat.

The main point I want to make, though, is that Windsor is a world apart from Detroit, a half mile across the Detroit River. The streets are clean, unlike Detroit, and though there are some hard-scrabble neighborhoods, you never feel unsafe like you do in Detroit. Canada runs a pretty tight ship in my opinion, but I think their tendency to left-wing government, especially regarding immigration policy, is chipping into its cohesiveness.

One last observation is that i think Canadians are the nicest people in the world. Generally and genuinely good. My wife's best friend in Ann Arbor, Michigan is a Canadian widow who lost her husband, and my friend, to cancer last year. I think she may be the sweetest person I know.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#163 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:55 am

China's decision to stop importing rubbish for recycling has now caught up with local councils in the UK. These councils have IMO made the right decision to stop collecting certain plastics and instead instructed people to put such items in the normal rubbish, this will be burnt to provide energy for the national grid or sent to landfill. Not ideal but the most cost effective solution to the problem. As is pointed out in this article, more should be done to reduce or eliminate all unnecessary and single use plastics.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... urned.html
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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#164 Post by G-CPTN » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:49 pm


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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#165 Post by G-CPTN » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Perhaps we should ask "What is the purpose of recycling plastic?"
Do we need to recycle to avoid the raw material cost of virgin plastic?
Do we need to 'recycle' to avoid the plastic from reaching the oceans?
Do we need to rectcle to reduce the amout sent to landfill?

Would it be acceptable to incinerate plastic and derive the heat energy?

What are the residuals after incinerating? - toxic emissions?

What’s worse, burning plastic or sending it to a landfill?

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#166 Post by larsssnowpharter » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:35 pm

You are asking the right questions.

Plastics can be incinerated and energy is given off in the process. However, some plastic can also give off toxins and the is a cost in CO2 emissions

Plastics also give off CO2 in landfill as they decay but, in general terms this is less than in the incineration process

It seems that plastic incineration may, on balance, be worthwhile where the energy produced by the process replaces energy from carbon or hydrocarbon sources.

A couple of points:

Studies I read nearly 20 years ago indicated that paper produced from wood pulp consumed nearly 3 times the energy of equivalent HDPE.

As plastics break down in our oceans they - besides the other damage - release toxins.

About 20 years ago I took the good ship Y knot to Palau and encountered a Sea Turtle, IMO one of the most beautiful creatures in our oceans. It was clearly in trouble. To cut a long story short, it was taken aboard, landfall was made and a vet found. I was there when the turtle was operated on. Over 20 plastic bags were taken out of its gut. Turtle didn't make it.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#167 Post by larsssnowpharter » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:35 pm

You are asking the right questions.

Plastics can be incinerated and energy is given off in the process. However, some plastic can also give off toxins and the is a cost in CO2 emissions

Plastics also give off CO2 in landfill as they decay but, in general terms this is less than in the incineration process

It seems that plastic incineration may, on balance, be worthwhile where the energy produced by the process replaces energy from carbon or hydrocarbon sources.

A couple of points:

Studies I read nearly 20 years ago indicated that paper produced from wood pulp consumed nearly 3 times the energy of equivalent HDPE.

As plastics break down in our oceans they - besides the other damage - release toxins.

About 20 years ago I took the good ship Y knot to Palau and encountered a Sea Turtle, IMO one of the most beautiful creatures in our oceans. It was clearly in trouble. To cut a long story short, it was taken aboard, landfall was made and a vet found. I was there when the turtle was operated on. Over 20 plastic bags were taken out of its gut. Turtle didn't make it.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#168 Post by BenThere » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:23 pm

That turtle is why action is required, larsssnowpharter. The crap our consumer and industrial society produces needs to be contained, managed and disposed of so as not to generate environmental ruin either for humans or the flora and fauna we impact.

We can do better, and I think even improve the conditions such as that turtle endured. But I'm quite uneasy about the political element that tends to promote the shutdown of human endeavors, whatever the cost or whatever the benefit. Such things need to be reasoned out by wise stewards, not consigned to the political process.

I just can't bring myself to support the mantra, "Great News! The whales are saved, but you're going to starve."

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#169 Post by Alisoncc » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:49 pm

So Ben, you wouldn't support "Land rights for gay whales" then.
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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#170 Post by Magnus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:25 pm

Anybody here tasted whale steaks?

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#171 Post by Slasher » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:57 pm

Yep. SE China a while back. All the heat was on the Japs.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#172 Post by Magnus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:41 pm

It was something of a staple in the UK during WWII. I suspect that's why Dame Vera Lynn recorded "Whale Meat Again".

More seriously, I see that our Environment Secretary (Gove) plans to ban plastic straws, stirrers and cotton buds within a year. That'll help our conscience a bit, but likely make nada difference to the global problem.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#173 Post by 1DC » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:51 pm

Their is an abandoned dump of about 50000 tons of plastic waste a few miles from here apparently originally destined for China but not going now so just been left. Apparently will cost the local council about £2.2 million to remove if they ever get around to it. It is time the laws of this country were changed so that people who cause the problem are always accountable.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#174 Post by Alisoncc » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:49 am

Scientists discover plastic in faeces of every person who took part in Europe-wide study
Scientists have discovered up to nine different types of plastic in the faeces of every person who took part in a Europe-wide study.

On average, researchers found 20 microplastic particles in every 10 grams of stool, suggesting humans are swallowing them in food.

Particles between 50 and 500 micrometres across were found, the most common being polypropylene (PP) and polyethylene terephthalate (PET).
Given that the major source of the protein content of chicken feed pellets is fish detritus, KFC and the like may be far from good for you.

Once saw a doco showing Chinese trawlers hoovering up the seabed for anything and everything that maybe there. This then being dried and processed into said pellets which became the "catch", with minimal human intervention, far less inspection. So what kind of sh*t are they feeding the chickens you eat. :ymsick:

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#175 Post by Magnus » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:02 pm

Alison, a lot of fish meal is also fed to pigs. What ye sow, so shall ye reap.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#176 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:32 pm

I might get excited about plastic if it is ever taken seriously. Our Supermarket has removed plastic bags from the check out with a great fanfare of publicity about Saving the Whales etc. but still has a least a dozen rolls of plastic bags around the fresh vegetable section, so that one can put a loose banana, a couple of potatos, a few beans etc. into three or four individual bags to present to the cashier, and ... ALL the bakery items come totally protected from coughs and sneezes, passing children etc, in enormous hard plastic shells. We bought a nice chocolate Swiss Roll yesterday, placed on a hard plastic tray, and surrounded by a hard plastic cocoon that need a passing five year old to open ! Having got it home I was almost resigned to getting the chain saw out. Whatever happened to the bakery items that were displayed on shelves and open to the atmosphere in the Bakers window, only protected from the hot sun if the baker bothered to go out and lower a canvas roller blind across the pavement from the top of the window? Tasted just as good to my childhood tastebuds as the present, plastic protected, stuff.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#177 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:15 am

My World is sane - I bake my own bread. With nothing 'enriched' neither. In fact, I am doing so right now!

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#178 Post by BenThere » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:18 pm

I bake my own bread, too. Usually I just use the finest flour (King Arthur or Lily), water, yeast, and a pinch of salt to make baguettes, French style.

Occasionally I add some butter, milk, sugar or honey, maybe a few herbs and use that for sandwiches. For that I use loaf pans. For baguettes I use Chicago Metallic baguette trays.

I also sometimes use whole grains or rye to make more rustic creations, made in artisan rounds.

Making my own bread is a psychically rewarding pleasure. I do it with my 20 year old Kitchen Aid mixer, roll it out and pop it in the oven for 20-30 minutes, depending on the loaves I'm making. The aroma wafting through the house alone is worth the effort.

I've been trying to master sourdough, but haven't quite gotten the hang of it yet.

Making excellent bread isn't rocket surgery and the rewards of doing it far outweigh the effort.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#179 Post by probes » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:13 am

I left the memory-stick home and had to buy a new one - Gosh, thought it wouldn't help any as I didn't have any 'device' to get it from the hard core plastic! (several layers, of course). OK, maybe it's needed to protect the 'inside', but it surely should be something manageable by nails and teeth? :-?

I wonder - will plastic be the next material to be banned? Like leaded petrol or DDT or asbestos.
Microplastics everywhere

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Do the Arithmetic

#180 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:39 pm

Image

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