Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

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Mrs Ex-Ascot
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Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#1 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:14 pm

There seems to be more and more worrying articles in the press regarding environmental contamination with plastic materials.

This is one recent example; https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... dy-reveals

Should we be more worried about this definitely man made problem rather than the perhaps (unproven ) man made problem of global warming ? :-?
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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#2 Post by Alisoncc » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:31 am

Seen a few documentaries relating to the vast amount of plastic in the oceans, so finding similar on land doesn't surprise me. Must be long overdue a "cleaning out" of the billions of two legged cockroaches that infest and pollute this planet.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#3 Post by Bob » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:34 pm

Alisoncc wrote: Must be long overdue a "cleaning out" of the billions of two legged cockroaches that infest and pollute this planet.

Alison


I doubt we will last as long as the Dinosaurs did and I think we will be extinct before we cause terminal damage, least I hope so.
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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#4 Post by Bob » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:38 pm

Oh yea Plastic, I was pondering the other day about all these composite aircraft and soon cars that will be built, not exactly recyclable in the way Aluminium and steel is.
As much as the manufacturers shout loudly of green credentials of using more efficient materials, yet again they are telling porkies and quietly sweeping under the carpet the long term costs to the environment, same as bio fuel and batteries, none of it is 'Green'
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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#5 Post by BenThere » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:38 pm

Why don't we gather up all the plastic detritus and flotsam and burn it for energy production? After all, it's essentially petroleum.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#6 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:35 pm

I was pondering the other day about all these composite aircraft and soon cars that will be built, not exactly recyclable in the way Aluminium and steel is.


When the first fibreglass Harrier crashed in Denmark, the cleanup cost was horrendous, into the millions I believe, and it was in a flat field with easy access.

Why don't we gather up all the plastic detritus and flotsam and burn it for energy production? After all, it's essentially petroleum


In a word, dioxins, because plastics aren't just petroleum.
http://www.wecf.eu/cms/download/2004-20 ... astics.pdf

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#7 Post by BenThere » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:31 pm

I'm not informed as to the dioxin issue. Can't it be scrubbed? I do know the stuff burns. In fact I used to throw a piece of plastic, such as the collar around a six-pack, onto the fireplace wood to get the oak lit. Worked like a charm. It can't have been too toxic, as I'm still kicking forty years later.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#8 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:34 pm

Plastic can be burned safely - very high temperatures is the key, but that doesn't happen in domestic burning, and when you add up all the fuel to transport it to a licensed incinerator, you spend more than you ever get back from the burn. Far more. This was all worked out 30 years ago, but the Greenies love to ignore science they don't like. Basically, you recycle glass and aluminum, and burn or bury the rest at home, from an energy standpoint. However, in urban areas this changes (where smog is liable to be a problem) to recycling everything. Thus, here it makes most sense if everything is, where possible, packaged in stuff like cardboard, glass bottles, and aluminum or steel cans. However, the Government financial, regulatory and incentive regimes means it makes sense (economically and legally) for companies to use plastic everywhere. In short, what the Government says it wants, it then penalizes people for doing, so they don't.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#9 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:31 am

It seems that even humble sea salt isn't safe; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -SALT.html couldn't get the video at the bottom of the article, but I guess it shows just how much rubbish is in the oceans. And there is probably a lot more very deep down.

It worries me that (In my opinion ) no serious efforts appear to being made either locally or globally to stop the dumping of rubbish in the sea. There seems to be no real efforts to reduce the production of plastic products or packaging. And I hate to think what health problems are going to materialise in the long term.
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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#10 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:27 pm

It does not suit Government to do what it says, and the voters refuse to hold them to account.
I recall arriving at one of the Canary islands and seeing that a disposal fee had been added to mooring charges, and all rubbish had to be separated. The trucks picked up the rubbish. Later that morning we set sail, and about 5 miles down the coast those same trucks were backing up to the cliff edge and dumping all the carefully separated waste off the cliff into the ocean. They'd picked a spot where only a yacht happening by would notice.

Where I am now has the best recycling in North America. The key elements are:
Firstly, the island is highly dependent on agriculture, aquaculture, and tourism. Thus, any dumping or unwise disposal would damage pretty much everyone, Government and ordinary people. 96% of the population use their composting bins.
Secondly, the system is highly responsive to people's needs. Things get changed to suit the normal householder.
Thirdly, it's all very reasonable. E.g electronics are free to drop off (you pay when you purchase), everyone at the sites is helpful and they have extra staff at busy times, fees are cleverly just below the "I don't mind paying that" limit. The minimum fee is $5, not something silly.
And it works. I have never seen anything dumped anywhere.
https://www.iwmc.pe.ca/pdfs/2016AnnualReport.pdf

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#11 Post by probes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:42 am

A good link, thanks, Mrs. Ex-Ascot!

“We are increasingly smothering ecosystems in plastic and I am very worried that there may be all kinds of unintended, adverse consequences that we will only find out about once it is too late,” said Prof Roland Geyer..."

It seems to me that there's some self-destruction system in the Man, being at the top of the food chain. As nobody eats us, we have to do it ourselves. Medical science and the army is part of the system - one by saving the weak and the other by killing the fittest of the species.


BenThere wrote:I'm not informed as to the dioxin issue. .... It can't have been too toxic, as I'm still kicking forty years later.


The trouble with dioxins, as far as I understand, is that they don't break up in the environment and bio-accumulate. Also, they might "disappear" from around you, but travel to somewhere else and contaminate there.

"Dioxins may also be transported long distances in the global atmospheric
circulation toward the polar regions of the earth, due to volatilization and
cold condensation properties (Carey et al, 1998). In other words, warm air
currents tend to rise, carrying the particles that vaporize easily in the warmer
climates. The particles travel to the cooler climates, sinking back to earth as
they arrive in the colder, polar regions.
Animals in cooler regions (e.g., oily, cold water fish such as salmon, cod, and
halibut and mammals such as polar bears, seals, and whales) tend to have high
levels of body fat to insulate themselves from the cooler temperatures and,
therefore, bioaccumulate persistent organic pollutants, including dioxins."

https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publication ... 104010.pdf

Sandra Steingraber has published on the issue, being a science writer.
(one of the links on her home page http://steingraber.com/the-pirates-of-illiopolis/)

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#12 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:04 am

Scientists have found large chunks of polystyrene released by melted Arctic ice. And they reckon that there is a lot more to be released as more ice melts. And not just large chunks which can be fished out,but lots of microplastics to ultimately end up in our food chain.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ife-threat
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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#13 Post by BenThere » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:43 pm

I'm all in favor of reducing the impact of disposable plastic materials on the environment. I lean toward the idea of mandating biodegradable standards that seem to be available to today's technology and economically achievable. We also need to collect and properly dispose of the toxic junk already out there.

The problem is separating the politics from the practicalities. For example, many jurisdictions in the US have banned plastic shopping bags, most of which I think are biodegradable. The practical consequences, though, include spreading of harmful bacteria by using cloth shopping bags. Also, as most people reuse plastic shopping bags as garbage bags, they simply buy commercial plastic garbage bags for the same purpose, which may or may not be biodegradable. The cry goes out, however, always from the do-gooders: "Ban Plastic Bags!" I'm not opposed to such sentiment, and support efforts to improve the environment, so long as it's thought through, and truly does benefit the environment, unintended consequences considered.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#14 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:06 pm

However, many councils have banned people from using opaque plastic bags for garbage (in an attempt to more closely inspect the contents of people who don't dispose of waste correctly*), and the supermarkets refuse to adopt mostly clear bags with a logo on.
There is no joined up thinking anywhere on this, mostly because nobody has a vested interest in common sense.

Me, I keep the first clear bag of waste in the barn, reuse opaque grocery bags for subsequent garbage, then dump the clear one on top for the collection.

*They've recently introduced waste inspectors here, who check bins put out for collection at random. I got pinged for waste kitchen towel in the waste. It's supposed to be in compost unless it's contaminated with paint. These were. White paint. So, I got pinged incorrectly. And this is just the kind of thing that pisses the law-abiding off. And why I now don't give a stuff about trying to satisfy their every whim.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#15 Post by BenThere » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:39 pm

When I lived in Yuba City, California, a city of 70,000 or so, my next door neighbor was the general manager of the Yuba City waste collection operation. We were pretty good friends, doing barbecues and the like, and when I moved to Italy after a couple of years there, he bought my Chevy pickup.

While I lived there, we were converted, from garbage bins that we could select and determine how many we could put out at the curb on collection day, and take our recyclables to a private collection center which would pay us for recyclables of value, to a three bin system that provided a large bin for recyclables, and two bins roughly half the size for garbage and compostables. There were no mandates, fines or inspections enforcing what you put in your bins, but most citizens were concerned that such a regime was just around the corner.

I had a chat with my neighbor about how my collection bill had more than doubled in a short time and why is that. His answer was that the new bins were a cost burden, the city had to expand its landfill, and new trucks had to be acquired to accomplish 3 different pickups rather than the previous one pickup. I can understand that.

But then he said that to date, everything was going into the same landfill because the city hadn't yet built facilities to process the recyclables and compostables. "What?!", I exclaimed. Why wasn't that the first step in this expensive process?

After thinking about our conversation I came up with the idea of single bin collection, but conveyer belt sorting operated by our adequate population of prisoners. An operation could be set up where all the trash is picked up and taken to the conveyer facility where prisoners could sort the recoverable recyclables. The prisoners would keep a portion of the value of the materials they sorted and placed in their bins. They could bid for positions offering the most opportunity, like aluminum, hard plastic, paper, etc. based on a point system rewarding good behavior, self-improvement, seniority and such. The junior guy on the line would end up composting the dog crap, but would work his way up the line.

You could write a thesis developing this. The plusses include more efficient waste processing, incentives for prisoners and instilling a work ethic, real recycling, and ultimately a better environment. Along with that, Joe Public gets to dump everything in the bins without sorting and no busybodies inspecting his trash for evidence of resistance. Win-win.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#16 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:49 pm

I think the problem is that the vast majority of government employees only care about ticking enough boxes and hitting enough targets not to put their jobs at risk, and the people devising the boxes and the targets have no common sense, and/or are in the same boat re boxes for their bosses. And the people at the top care about re-election, photo-ops and opportunities for graft.
Winnipeg has a sensible method. The new trucks are equipped with automatic lifting arms. When bins are placed correctly at the curb (which works in Canada, as everybody does), the driver (sole operator) never leaves his cab. So, the guy who used to do the bin hauling can now work at the new recycling plant. About which he is quite pleased because now he isn't outside in -40. Canada doesn't have enough prisoners to make this work, really. From statistical averages, PEI has about three dozen prisoners full-time at any one time, most of whom are drunk or high on admission, and most of the rest are thieves. Probably not people you want to employ. 78% of prisoners are in for less than a month. Many of the occupants are the weekends-only brigade, as they already have a weekday job. They have their own wing, so they don't mix with the hard cases.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#17 Post by BenThere » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:05 pm

Plan ahead, Fox. Canada is opening its borders. You'll have plenty of prisoners in no time. If not, put your welfare recipients to work as a condition of their benefits.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#18 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:25 pm

They'll all go to Trono.
Population of my nearest village is 100% White, English-speaking.
In fact a quick look at StatsCan shows that the total number of visible minorities, unmarried mothers, single parent families, people with arts or social studies degrees, people who do those things, is zero.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#19 Post by BenThere » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Doesn't Queen Elizabeth have connection to the house of Tudor, which practiced slavery? If so, don't you need to get about tearing down all monuments and such in her honor? That should keep you busy for a while.

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Re: Should we be more worried about plastic than global warming?

#20 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:56 pm

Not in Canada.
Upper Canada, Act against Slavery, 1793*
English Slavery Abolition, 1833
Queen Victoria accession, 1837
British North America Act, 1867
I'm not aware of Canada routinely celebrating anyone earlier than Victoria. We do have Victoria Day annually.
So, someone else's problem.

* first part of the British Empire to ban slavery.

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