Climate Disruption.

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AtomKraft
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Re: Climate Disruption.

#341 Post by AtomKraft » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:50 pm

Ok John. Much as I like you, your nutter status is confirmed!

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#342 Post by John Hill » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:55 pm

AtomKraft wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:50 pm
Ok John. Much as I like you, you're nutter status is confirmed!
I am working on it! ;)))
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#343 Post by AtomKraft » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:01 pm

As far as 'Climate Change' is concerned....

Some uncontroversial- and undisputed facts follow.

1. Temp increase in the last 100 or so years is 0.6-0.8 of 1 degree Celsius. Who finds that alarming?
2. Clearly, that number means we can take the Earths temp today, and subtract the Earths temp 100 years ago, to within one tenth of a degree.

Right. :p

Further, what would the Earth have done temp wise had we not been here? We don't know- but we MUST know- because we need to subtract the Earths natural warming or cooling from the observed change, to leave us with the Anthropogenic component.


Another factoid: 97% of CO2 is emitted naturally. WE only contribute 3%

Another factoid: Without any input from us, the UK was covered with ice a mile deep. It will happen again, should we survive long enough, and every single trace of our work here in the UK will be eradicated completely when it happens.

That's climate change.

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#344 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:20 pm

Image

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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: Climate Disruption.

#345 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:18 pm

cenozoic-t-2.png
cenozoic-t-2.png (108.78 KiB) Viewed 330 times

Slasher

Re: Climate Disruption.

#346 Post by Slasher » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:20 am

Boac wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:49 am
Slasher - re your interesting and challenging video in post #327 - definitely food for thought. However, what do YOU make of the NASA results, and has he been asked this? He and you are suggesting that NASA is part of a global conspiracy - is that so? I believe in the clip he said that sea-levels have NOT risen more than 1mm per year, or do you and he consider a steady 3mm per year insignificant?

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/sea-level/

I'm not wishing here to get into the 'whodunnit' and man-made emissions arguments, just to know whether you dispute NASA's findings? If so, why do you think they are distorting the truth by 300%?
Good question Boac worthy of reply. I'll need to look into it as far as NASA is concerned before I can give an informed response. In the meantime have a brief look at this:

http://www.thehill.com/opinion/energy-e ... evel%3famp

If the above link doesn't work try this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.co ... evel%3famp

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#347 Post by AtomKraft » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:32 am

Plum.
Your graph is labelled Global Temperature Anomaly.
Why is it an anomaly?

If it stayed the same for 100 years, THAT would be an anomaly!

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#348 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:35 am

It's anomalous because it cannot be explained by "natural" greenhouse gas emissions.

Volcanos emit less than 4% of the amount of that crap that is emitted as a result of human activity.

Slasher

Re: Climate Disruption.

#349 Post by Slasher » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:05 am

Plum may I just ask for the source of that graph?

Atom I'm not giving a lecture to you on how to suck eggs, but any data presented in Science is valid unless it is disproved by rigorous skepticism and experiment. Plum's graph is just as valid as Fox3's. To begin with the source is first examined.

Nature doesn't have to comply with human ambition or desires. Bitter truths in Science have to be accepted even if fervent cherished beliefs are destroyed in the process. Science is not out to convince - it is out to draw conclusions. Those conclusions, if provable by hard-nosed facts, become a theory. If the theory is reproduceable universally without contradiction whatsoever, it becomes a Law (e.g. Newtonian physics). You'll note that Einstein's theories are rightfully still called that - despite Black Holes, Caesium clocks and GPS time dilation etc) because he screwed up by throwing a bloody Cosmological Constant into the works.🙄

In my much younger days I really had this deep belief that the atmospheric emissions of we talking monkeys were screwing up the global climate (as firstest posed by Dr Carl Sagan). It wasn't until I utilised the Scientific Method of separating fact from ***** that no, humans aren't causing any change to the climate. Al Gore's lies sealed it. So I had to change my GW tune back then whether I liked it or not.

But man was I REALLY seriously pissed off and disappointed when I had to accept the fact that:

1. The Enterprise will never become a reality nor travel at WF 10
2. I'll never sit in its Captain's chair nor bonk a Rand-like yeoman on Rigel IV. :-L
3. The Human race will forever remain as sublight cretins*.

* nickname us highly intelligent forward-thinking Trekkers give those who think we're completely nuts. Trekkies on the other hand are simply sci-fi idiots.

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#350 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:54 am

F3's graph of what happened 50 million years ago is vastly less important than what is happening in this century and what happened in the last century and what will happen in the next century.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to learn from from what happened in the Pliocene, as shown by F3, and to consider where we are headed now.

Image

Imagine there are no people. Imagine a planet where the sea level is about five to forty metres higher than normal. Imagine a planet that is hotter and wetter. Imagine, worldwide, it’s roughly 3 to 4°C warmer than today. And the North and South poles are even warmer still – as much as 10° hotter than today.

Welcome to the Pliocene. That was the Earth about three to five million years ago, very different to the Earth we inhabit now. But in at least one respect it was rather similar. This was the last time that CO2 levels were as high as they are today.

Here's what's happening in the here and now:



Then consider the trajectory of the graphs.

Capetonian

Re: Climate Disruption.

#351 Post by Capetonian » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:02 pm

This is real Guardian lefty claptrap, politics of envy. However he makes a couple of valid points.
History will be kind to Heathrow climate protesters who stop us flying
George Monbiot
Contributor image for: George Monbiot

Activists plan to release drones near the airport. Their possible arrest is a small price to pay for fighting the climate crisis
@GeorgeMonbiot

Obedience is dangerous: it has facilitated every form of institutional oppression and violence. Every advance in justice, peace and democracy has been made possible by disobedience. Ethical progress is unlikely when we do only what we are told.

We owe our right to vote, our freedom from servitude and subjection, our prosperity and security to people reviled in their time as lawbreakers and reprobates. Breaking the law on behalf of others is a long and honourable tradition. Next week, a few dozen unaffiliated activists intend to start something they call Heathrow Pause. They will each fly a toy drone within the restricted zone around Heathrow airport. The drones will fly nowhere near the flight paths, and never above head height, ensuring they present no risk. But any drone activity forces the airport to suspend all flights. The activists know they face arrest and possibly long prison sentences.
We are told that flying is about freedom. It is: the freedom of the rich to destroy the lives of the poor

Their plan is to launch their drones consecutively, stopping flights for as long as possible: perhaps for several days. In doing so they seek to denormalise one of the most destructive activities on Earth. Once unthinkable, then a bizarre novelty, then an extraordinary luxury, then a hope, then an expectation, flying – and flying frequently – is now treated as a right. Worldwide, the number of flights is expected to double in 20 years. In the UK, if aviation growth is unchecked, it could soon account for most of the carbon we can afford to burn, if the government is to meet its obligations under the Paris agreement. Even current levels of flying make a nonsense of international commitments. Yet everywhere governments are seeking to expand airport capacity.

Those who defend the sector point out that it currently produces “only” 2.4% of the world’s emissions. But this is because just 20% of the world’s people have ever flown. In terms of individual impact, taking a flight, because of the quantity of fuel it uses, inflicts more harm on the living planet and its people than anything else you are likely to do.

Even in rich nations, flying is overwhelmingly concentrated among the wealthiest citizens. In the UK, 15% of the population accounts for 70% of flights. Those most likely to fly frequently, according to House of Commons research, have a second home abroad and a household income of more than £115,000. We are told that flying is about freedom. It is: the freedom of the rich to destroy the lives of the poor.

As flying expands, it will become one of the principal causes of global heating. The impact is already greater than the 2.4% of emissions suggests, as planes create cirrus clouds that roughly double the overall heating effect. There are technological alternatives for most of our damaging activities – but not flying. Biofuels will cause more problems than they solve. Large electric planes, for all the hype surrounding them, are many years away and may never materialise.

Carbon offsets are now redundant: the only way of preventing more than 1.5C of heating is to reduce emissions drastically, while simultaneously using the protection and restoration of nature to draw down carbon from the atmosphere. One is not a substitute for the other: we need to maximise both. The only realistic option is to travel less by plane.

Yet flying on a whim is being normalised, even hypernormalised. Last year Tatler magazine, whose target readers are extremely wealthy, airily declared: “The Long-Haul Long Weekend is now a thing.” It gushes about escaping from “grey England” to the Seychelles for four days – or to Kenya, Antigua or Cape Town, a mere 11 hours away. “Slip off to one of these destinations on a Thursday night and you can be back by Tuesday with an adventure worth shouting about.”
Activists to fly drones at Heathrow in attempt to ground flights

Among the most depressing things I have seen in the past year is Jane Goodall’s appearance in an advertisement for British Airways: when a prominent environmentalist endorses an airline, you know we are in deep moral trouble.

The socially just solution is the frequent-flyer levy proposed by the Free Ride coalition. There would be no aviation tax for the first flight in any year that a person takes but escalating taxes on subsequent flights. Set at the right level, the levy would avert the need for airport expansion, and steadily scale down the industry. But don’t expect the government to listen. The new transport secretary, Grant Shapps, was previously chair of the British Infrastructure Group, which lobbied “to ensure that every opportunity for growth is seized”, backing airport expansion and a reduction in air passenger duty.

Nothing will change until the impacts of flying become salient. One of the Heathrow Pause campaigners, Valerie Brown, told me: “I’m petrified, of course ... It’s not easy to face the idea of prison, but it’s even more frightening to me to think about what my grandchildren and all the children of the world will face in 20 or 30 years’ time.” Another, James Brown (no relation), explained that he decided to act when he found his adult daughter had broken down with grief about ecological destruction. “I’m prepared to face the consequences,” he said. “I don’t know what prison will be like for me. But against the alternatives it’s a small price to pay.”

They risk their liberty in the hope of freeing us from the momentous consequences of climate breakdown. History will judge them kindly.

• George Monbiot is a Guardian columnist

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#352 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:25 pm

I hope the Met Police hammer those arseholes.

There is a right way to bring publicity to the problem; and many wrong ways. Their way is wrong.

Here's the right way to educate the public:


Slasher

Re: Climate Disruption.

#353 Post by Slasher » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:59 am

Boac wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:49 am
My reply as promised. Hope this is enough.



Capetonian

Re: Climate Disruption.

#354 Post by Capetonian » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:11 am

I have some some sympathy with their cause and some of their views but the way they're setting about it is not going to win them many friends. many cyclists are their own worst enemy with their loutish selfish dangerous and inconsiderate behaviour.



Hundreds of cyclists stage ‘die-in’ protest in central London

Mock funeral procession highlights impact of cars and demands funding for cyclist safety
Mattha Busby

Hundreds of cyclists took part in a staged funeral procession in central London on Saturday before performing a “die-in” near Whitehall to call for greater investment in walking and cycling.

The protest, organised by the campaign groups Extinction Rebellion and Stop Killing Cyclists, drew attention to statistics showing that more than 100 cyclists were killed and 3,400 seriously injured in 2016, the most recent year for which figures were available.

Three horse-drawn hearses carrying coffins led the procession from Lincoln’s Inn Fields along the Strand, as signs saying “Asthma”, “Crashes”, “Obesity” and “Climate” highlighted the impact of car travel. A small child’s coffin commemorated the children and adults who have died prematurely from diseases related to air pollution.
Chancellor urged to double funding to tackle climate crisis

The 10-minute “die-in” was initially scheduled to take place outside the Treasury, but police asked the activists to congregate next to Trafalgar Square due to a separate, concurrent anti-government protest outside Downing Street.

As sombre, pre-recorded funeral music played by bagpipes rang out, protesters demanded an ecological and climate emergency autumn budget with £6bn to be invested in walking and cycling.

“Transport is the largest greenhouse gas-emitting sector in the UK,” Caspar Hughes, an organiser at Stop Killing Cyclists, said. “Cycling campaigning is climate campaigning. The die-in is symbolic of all the people who have lost their lives due to traffic violence, pollution and the climate.

He said the spending review was “laughable” and criticised what he said was a stark imbalance between investment in cycling infrastructure and the expansion of the road network.

Donnachadh McCarthy, the co-founder of Stop Killing Cyclists, said: “With the Arctic and Amazon on fire and tens of thousands of Britons dying from car pollution, it beggars belief that chancellor Sajid Javid is proposing more toxic fossil fuel duty cuts.

“The 2019 budget must be a climate and ecological emergency budget that includes £6bn per year for the creation of a national cycling network and the reversal of the toxic fuel duty cuts.”

Many of the protesters had cycled into London from elsewhere in the UK. Extinction Rebellion called for “massive investment” in safe cycle lanes, which the group said would help protect children from fossil fuel pollution.

Protesters’ other demands included a reversal of fuel tax cuts and the institution of car-free villages, towns and city centres.

“If there were less cars and people cycled more, we would all be healthier,” Kelvin Dane, who cycled from Romford, Essex. “Its quite scary when you cycle in London – it’s not everybody’s cup of tea. There’s too many cars on the road, people are too lazy, they use cars for short distances. Its madness. People should just cycle, it’s very simple.”

Sisemen

Re: Climate Disruption.

#355 Post by Sisemen » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:18 am

That totally destroys their argument ....”If there were less cars...”. Fewer cars, FEWER!!!

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#356 Post by Boac » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:13 pm

Slasher - I forced myself to listen to all of his nauseating 'Listen with Mother' delivery, but failed to see any explanation of why NASA might have exaggerated sea level readings. His whole item seemed to be concerned with coastal sea levels which are largely meaningless due to moving land masses. NASA's focus is on global and regional levels and examines the ice losses in Polar regions. I remain unconvinced and CANNOT see any benefit to NASA in distorting the figures?

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#357 Post by Undried Plum » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:13 pm

I've been a practising hydrographic surveyor intermittently for the thick end of half a century and I can tell you that there are no oceanographers or hydrographers (outside a lunatic asylum or the Betty Ford Clinic, as most of us are) who are not aware of the fact that global sea level is rising and that it is rising at an increasing rate.

When I was a sprog Surveyor on the Piper/Claymore/Flotta project in the 1970s we quantified it as 2mm/yr in the North Sea. Now it is 4mm/yr. No doubt about that at all; and that figure does take into account land upheaval/sinking and it recognises that Ordnance Survey Newlyn Datum is a pile of shite.

I have great admiration for those who have the patience to explain science to flat earthists and 9/11 deniers and lunar landing deniers and climate change deniers and evolution deniers. I do not have any such patience.

Sure, there are local variations. There are several reasons for those local anomalies such a climate change induced changes in wind stress patterns and unrelated local land movement in the vertical axis. You can see these anomalies for yourself on the NOAA website

https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltre ... rends.html

Slasher

Re: Climate Disruption.

#358 Post by Slasher » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:13 am

Boac wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:13 pm
I remain unconvinced and CANNOT see any benefit to NASA in distorting the figures?
Boac - Science isn't about convincing: it's about rigorous skepticism of data and drawing conclusion, whether that conclusion fits in with personal ambition/desire or not. The speaker proved that NASA's prediction data is flawed - why doesn't its prediction follow what the evidence is in real life? I wouldn't have a clue if NASA is in a conspiracy or not, and besides who cares? It's its hard data that is up for scrutiny, and certainly not through some emotional religious-like 'belief system' that these GW alarmists rely on (e.g. Believers v Deniers).

Climate changes on both a micro and macro basis. That's the nature of Climate. If it didn't THEN something would be seriously wrong.

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#359 Post by Boac » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:13 am

Slasher - were UP's 'facts' 'convincing'?

UP - NB I use the '' on your 'facts' simply because this whole argument is revolving around "he said/she said" and establishing the truth is very difficult with all the 'video makers'. I have, however, no reason to doubt you.

Sadly the whole 'climate change' thing has become a bandwagon for 'believers' and 'deniers'. There can be no sane person (that eliminates the Chump, of course) who does not believe the climate is changing significantly. That is the message and the world needs to be reacting to the changes, not sticking its fingers in its ears and trying to ridicule the messengers.

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Re: Climate Disruption.

#360 Post by AtomKraft » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:02 am

The Earth has been a great deal warmer than today, and a great deal colder.
The UK was beneath a mile of ice and glaciers scoured the place completely.
Given enough time, it will repeat these events.
We DO NOT control the Earth.
Never have, never will.
Sure. Conserve resources, and try to minimise pollution. Plan to cope with the changes and adapt.

But complain about it changing implies we wish to keep it as it is now, and that's isn't possible.

We DO NOT control this place. We just live here.

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