Kashmir

[Woody]

Not the Led Zeppelin track, but is this just one of their periodic escalations or is it going to be more serious?

Pakistan says it has shot down two India Air Force jets in its airspace in Kashmir and arrested one pilot on the ground.
Military spokesman Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor said one of the planes had fallen in Pakistan-controlled territory while the other fell in Indian territory.
On Tuesday India launched strikes against militants in Pakistan.
Those raids were in retaliation for a militant attack on Indian troops in Indian-administered Kashmir.
Tensions have been high since the 14 February suicide attack on an Indian paramilitary police convoy, which killed at least 40 soldiers.
Also on Wednesday, Pakistan's foreign ministry said Pakistani jets had launched air strikes across the line of control dividing Pakistani- and Indian-controlled Kashmir.
Pakistan said it had "taken strikes at [a] non-military target, avoiding human loss and collateral damage".
Indian authorities said the Pakistani jets had been pushed back.
Both India and Pakistan claim all of Muslim-majority Kashmir, but control only parts of it. The two countries have fought three wars and a limited conflict since independence from Britain in 1947 - and all but one were over Kashmir.

[om15]

Many internal and international flights have been cancelled, the US has stepped in as peacemaker. Could be a spat or could escalate into something serious, depends on how the talking goes today. Both sides have issued conflicting versions of events, the Indians are still carrying out anti terrorist operations this morning in the mountains in Kashmir.

[OFSO]

...and both sides have nuclear weapons. Was thinking about this today.....

[Boac]

Wonder if they could 'accidentally' fire a few into Hanoi?

[ian16th]

Cricket World Cup Fixture.
Jun 16, Sun
India vs Pakistan
Old Trafford, Manchester

It is also our wedding anniversary

[Slasher]

...and both sides have nuclear weapons. Was thinking about this today.....

Yeh. With a bit of luck they'll exchange a few over their borders. Would be a bloody good lesson to the rest of the world. I'll miss the IPL and Test cricket though.

I think it was Gen whatsisname...Corncob Pipe in the 1960s who first proposed nuking HAN wasn't he?

[Woody]

Cricket World Cup Fixture.
Jun 16, Sun
India vs Pakistan
Old Trafford, Manchester

It is also our wedding anniversary

Should be safe where you are

[Cacophonix]

Is the history of the Kargil War about to be reprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War

Caco

[ian16th]

Is the history of the Kargil War about to be reprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War

Caco

The wars in this region, post Indian independence and partition in 1947, show that the overall winner has been China!

They have taken 'disputed' territory from both India and Pakistan, and conceded nothing.

From a military point of view, of interest, the only time the Hawker Hunter saw combat against the F-86 Sabre was India v Pakistan.
Another was the time that British built Canberra's were used by India and American B-57 by Pakistan.

[Woody]

Good news for some people.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I believe there are Indian Elections in Spring (April/May), and the bombing response a couple of days ago to the terrorist bus bombing was for the Indian Government to look good for those. A further Pakistani response was expected due to the Indian bombing raid, of an alleged terrorist training camp, was on Pakistani (not Pakistani-administered Kashmiri) soil.
Quite who initiated this little fracas, we may never know.
Only report I've seen so far says the Indian aircraft shot down was a Mirage 2000. These have small roundels near the tail on the jetpipe, which may match that shown in the telegraph photo
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... ate-right/
However, other reports about the pilot captured says he flew Mig-21s.
Either way, the wreckage I've seen does look like a single engine type. Losing a couple of Mig-21s to Pakistani F16s would be not beyond the realm of possibilities, but the Mirage 2000 should be able to hold its own, at least. The Pakistani pilots used to be better than the Indian ones, but I don't know these days.

Certainly, when practising Transition To War Exercises as air defenders, we were very aware that we might start a war as well as end one. Readers will be aware from incidents like the Gulf of Sidra that sometimes aircrew get a bit carried away and start shooting when the opposition meets that deadly RoE criteria of "looking at me in a funny way".

Update: Indian Ministry of External Affairs confirms losing one Mig 21. Claims one Pakistani aircraft shot down, type unknown, crashed in Pakistan.
https://twitter.com/ANI/status/11006963 ... 96/video/1

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

More on the Mig21
The Indian version (Bison) has been heavily upgraded, and can now track 8 targets on radar, has data link of some form, carry Semi-Active and possibly Active radar missiles (e.g. AA-10 Alamo), and the pilot has a helmet mounted sight. However, I believe it still has the basic engine, and the pilot still can't see much out of the window.
Quite a good summary of how to beat the Mig-21 from the Have Doughnut US trials here.
http://area51specialprojects.com/migs_area51.html

Worth noting that basic tactics described are used these days by ALL fighters in engagements of this size (reportedly 4v4) or larger. There's no point pulling 9 'g' because you know he can only pull 8 'g', 'cos you'll just get shot by one of his mates halfway round the turn. Hit the fight fast chucking missiles, pull no more than 90 degrees of turn at the merge if it looks like you have a shot, otherwise or after 90 degrees, unload and disappear at the speed of a thousand gazelles. Turn round 20 miles away, get your formation back in order, then thunder back in for another go.

[Boac]

https://www.airlive.net/breaking-pakist ... ir-strikes

Is there an IAF pilot who isn't a Wing Commander...

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Everyone whose dad is an Air Marshal is a Wing Commander at least
You know how Asia works!

[Sisemen]

Let the international society declare that they aren’t buying into it and let the buggers scrap it out.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

"..but, but,...they'd could nuke each other to cinders!"

"..yes, but what's the downside?"

[om15]

Yes I go along with that, hope Putin and Trump keep out of it and let nature take its course.
If the Pakistanis do nuke India it might just hopefully solve the problem of the incomprehensible cold calls regarding home insurance, double glazing and energy suppliers that are becoming a plague in the UK these days.

[Capetonian]

Let's hope it doesn't spill into warfare between different ethnic groups and nationalities in other countries, although I can see a possible upside to that!

[BenThere]

India has not to my knowledge ever been the aggressor. Much like Israel, it responds to transgressions. Ultimately, so long as Pakistan hosts and accommodates its militant Jihad component, and I'm not sure the government of Pakistan has much choice in that matter, the conflict with India will continue to fester.

I'm actually heartened that India is rising to the occasion. As I see it, India is a natural US ally, and Pakistan is a natural US enemy so long as Islamic Jihad continues to plague the rest of us.

[Rwy in Sight]

Can we hazard a guess about the Mutual Assured Distraction doctrine keeping them in balance?