Kashmir

[Pontius Navigator]

I was at Cottesmore in '65 on the Vulcan. Used to go to the AS A everyv3 months to practice last minute loading in Red Beard. Nasty weapon, never given an operational clearance.

[BenThere]

I mentioned proximity to York because a fellow crew member was interested in the York Minster organ, one of the great pipe organs ever built. He asked if I wanted to attend mass and I went with him to York on a Sunday to hear it. I think it was about an hour drive from Cottesmore. It was the singular thing I did on that trip. The organ was magnificent, centuries old, and played by a master. The music was accompanied by a fine choir of 60 or so, but there were only a few dozen of us there in the pews to appreciate it. I suppose Nottingham and Peterborough were closer, and that's where most of the guys hung out when they left the base, but York was much closer to us than San Francisco is to Washington, Caco.

[Sisemen]

Everything is relative Ben. As a native of the UK York, from Doncaster (about 70 km), would have been like taking a trip to the moon. Distances shortened as transport improved and I got older

[Cacophonix]

Ben, I am not going to sit and argue with you as it all seems rather superfluous at the moment but do agree that York minster is well worth a visit!

As for beating you about the head with a rolled up newspaper, I will eschew the stuff on the bottom of the bird cage as even I am not so mean as to beat you around the head with that.

Caco

[Cacophonix]

One reason why buying American, is probably a terrible idea no matter how good their kit is. How preposterous is this! No doubt the Russian and Chinese arms salesmen are beating their way to Pakistan as I write this!

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1460641/world

US wants to know if Pakistan used US-built jets to down Indian warplane

US often inserts restrictions on how its exported military hardware can be used

Pakistan says it did not use F-16s in shooting down the Indian warplane

ISLAMABAD/SRINAGAR, India: The United States said on Sunday it was trying to find out if Pakistan used US-built F-16 jets to down an Indian warplane, potentially in violation of US agreements, as the stand-off between the nuclear-armed Asian neighbors appeared to be easing.

Pakistan and India both carried out aerial bombing missions this week, including a clash on Wednesday that saw an Indian pilot shot down over the disputed region of Kashmir in an incident that alarmed global powers and sparked fears of a war.

A Pakistan military spokesman on Wednesday denied Indian claims that Pakistan used F-16 jets.

Pakistan returned the captured Indian pilot on Friday in a high-profile handover Islamabad touted as a “peace gesture,” which appeared to significantly dial down tensions, but both sides remain on high alert.

At the Line of Control (LoC), the de facto border between the two countries in the disputed Kashmir region, there was relative calm in the past 24 hours, both armies said on Sunday. But Indian security forces said they were carrying out major anti-militancy operations on their side on Kashmir and had shot dead two militants.

The US Embassy in Islamabad said on Sunday it was looking into reports that Pakistan used F-16 jets to shoot down the Indian pilot, a potential violation of Washington’s military sale agreements that limit how Pakistan can use the planes.

“We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information,” a US Embassy spokesperson said. “We take all allegations of misuse of defense articles very seriously.”

While Pakistan has denied using F-16 jets during a dogfight that downed an Indian Mig-21 warplane over Kashmir on Wednesday, it has not specified which planes it used, though it assembles Chinese-designed JF-17 fighter jets on its soil.

Pakistan has a long history of buying US military hardware, especially in the years after 2001 when Islamabad was seen as a key partner in the US-led War on Terror.

Pakistan bought several batches of F-16 planes, built by Lockheed Martin Corp, from Washington before relations soured and the United States cut off subsidised sales in 2016.

It is not clear what exactly these so-called “end-user agreements” restrict Pakistan from doing. “The US Government does not comment on or confirm pending investigations of this nature,” the US Embassy added.

On Thursday Indian officials displayed to reporters parts of what they called an air-to-air missile that can only be fired from F-16 jets, alleging they were used to bomb its side of the disputed Kashmir border on Wednesday.

A Pakistan military spokesman told reporters on Wednesday that Pakistani jets “locked” on Indian targets to demonstrate Pakistan’s capacity to strike back at India, but then chose to fire in an empty field where there would be no casualties.

Pakistan said its mission on Wednesday was in retaliation for India violating its airspace and sovereignty a day earlier, when Indian jets bombed a forest area near the northern city of Balakot.
India said it struck at militant training camps, but Islamabad denied any such camps existed, as did some villagers in the area when Reuters visited.

MILITANCY OPERATIONS
Cross-border shelling in the past few days has killed seven people on the Pakistani side and four on the Indian side of Kashmir. But on Sunday it was relatively quiet near the de facto border of Kashmir, the source of two of the three wars India and Pakistan have fought since independence from Britain in 1947.

“By and large the LoC was calm last night but you never know when it will become active again,” said Chaudhry Tariq Farooq, a minister in Pakistani Kashmir. “Tension still prevails.”

In Indian-administered Kashmir, troops on Sunday shot dead two militants after a three-day gunbattle that also killed five security force personnel, taking the total death toll to 25 in the past two weeks.

The fresh anti-militancy drive was launched after a Kashmiri suicide bomber, a member of a Pakistan-based militant group, killed 40 Indian paramilitary police on Feb. 14.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government has also come down hard on separatist groups operating in Kashmir, including by banning the Jamaat-e-Islami party, two of whose clerics were detained in raids on Saturday night.

Caco

[ian16th]

Thread drift: As a T2A working for a TO In the GPO, I fitted the telephones in the nuclear weapons stores in Cottesmore around 1964. The telephones had to be spark-proof, big heavy things in cast iron housings with rubber seals. Bit of an overkill, I thought.

Also worked on Bruntingthorpe when 10th TAC were there, roughly same period.

'Overkill?'

In a Nuke store?

[Mrs Ex-Ascot]

Regarding Caco's post above, it's like giving a soldier a gun and telling them that they are not allowed to shoot anyone or anything with it.

[OFSO]

If you've followed the Bloody Sunday inquiry, it appears that is exactly what the army were supposed to do.

[Pontius Navigator]

The organ was magnificent, centuries old, and played by a master

1830 actually.

[Pontius Navigator]

The organ was magnificent, centuries old, and played by a master

1830 actually.

[BenThere]

Thank you, and thank you again. I should have said it was almost 2 centuries old. Only Caco would quibble with that. I wasn't provided with a history of the organ, just guessing. Nevertheless, it was clear it was an old piece of work. I remember, too, how the big pipes produced bone-shaking bass and the small flutes rendered clear high notes, all resonating admirably in the minster's stone walls. It was all driven by air through the pipes. The craftsmen who created it were geniuses given the technology of the time.

Along that line, the amazing violins, brass and woodwind instruments, created in the analog age, are also amazing given the sounds they can produce when operated by artists.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ben, continuing to deviate, one of the greatest violin makers was Stradivarius and a British furniture maker was Chippendale.

One of our revered comedians owned both a Chippendale and a Stradivarius.

Unfortunately it was a Chippendale violin and a Stradivarius chair.

[G-CPTN]

WRT magnificent organs (of the church pipe/wind variety), it amazed me that some of the early musical compositions were created when such instruments were in their infancy, so even if they were as comprehensive as current day organs, there hadn't been long for the composers to familiarize with the instrument and become experienced and accomplished before creating the wonderful pieces that we can enjoy today.
One of my favourites (who was relatively recent):-

[AtomKraft]

The US has a bit of a cheek, complaining on how Pakistan uses its weapons, which the US sold it.

Maybe better not to flog the kit, if you have doubts about what they might do with it....but of course, the money comes in handy.

Reminds me of something I read about the UKs policy on weapons sales:

Questions the UK does NOT ask when flogging weapons overseas:
Why do you want these weapons?
Who do you intend to use them on?

Questions the UK does ask, when flogging weapons overseas:
What colour would you like these in?
How are you going to pay for these?

[Cacophonix]

The Colin Cruddas book on the history of AAR arrived tonight. It looks like it will be a good read.

Reading the foreward by Sir Michael Beetham and he notes that despite the British development of AAR it was the USAF that formally adopted the technique first in the 50"s

Only concession you will get from me ever BenThere!

Caco

[Pontius Navigator]

AK, you forgot,

Would you like a loan with which to pay?
Is there anything else we can do for you, on a personal basis, you know, nudge nudge.

[BenThere]

So is it more ethical to sell weapons with conditions or to sell them purely for the profits?

[Mrs Ex-Ascot]

So is it more ethical to sell weapons with conditions or to sell them purely for the profits?

Oh come on Ben There there can never be 'Ethical weapons sales'! Weapons are sold for the seller to make money and the buyer to use as they wish or need. And I can't see how anybody selling weapons can possibly lay down any conditions. As I said in my post above, it is like giving a soldier a gun and telling him he can't shoot anyone or thing with it. So, if the government of a country isn't happy for their Arm dealers to sell weapons to another country unless 'conditions' are applied, then maybe they should ban weapon sales to that country full stop. QED.

[ian16th]

Like when the RAF had US Nukes and a USAF policemen escorted the weapon to the a/c.

Once the door was shut and the engines started, it was all out of the hands of Washington.

[Sisemen]

Looking at the post from G-CPTN with the organ score I wonder how many musically gifted Ops Normalers could play this “follow the notes” score for Pachelbel’s Canon Suite in D ?