Antisemitism.

[AtomKraft]

This seems to be a hot topic these days, and also one of those which is "difficult" to discuss frankly.

Perhaps eventually, there will be a law in place which means that we all have to really like anyone from Israel, under pain of imprisonment?

It seems that measures to prevent criticism, or disapproval grow ever stronger as time passes.

If I found myself in a position where laws had to be passed to prevent anyone saying anything unpleasant about me, I'd be likely to scrutinise myself in order to find out why they were so inclined in the first place- but legislation, rather than introspection seems to be the weapon of choice these days.

Where is all this leading, I wonder?

[om15]

The actress Maureen Lipman has spoken about this, she is a lifelong Labour supporter who is now considering changing to Tory " Who could support this lot?". Here she is being interviewed on LBC on the subject of Miss Dianne.

LBC radio host Andrew Castle asked: “What would you say to Diane Abbott, who is allowed a motion and did not object, allowing a motion to firmly reject accusations of anti-Semitism in the local party? Obviously it made news yesterday, what do you say? Because she might be Home Secretary one day.”

Ms Lipman blasted: “Diane Abbott is the Labour Party’s Chris Grayling. You just give up really. What is she doing there. There is no way to explain Diane Abbott.
“She has got kids in private school, she doesn’t know the numbers when she comes on the radio, and she cannot control her own breath when she’s speaking.
“It’s pointless, pointless.”

Where is it all leading? probably the same way as Baroness Farsi is delivering the Islamophobic angle, anyone can criticise white, Christian native inhabitants of these islands about any nonsense they choose, mandatory in the BBC, however no one can even think of critical observations of those not from our shores.

In the case of Labour it is a pretty easy shot to discredit them, however as it is driving Jewish supporters away that is ok, if Corbyn wants to support the Palestinians that's his business I suppose, the bonus to us is that it adds to his unelectability.

[Undried Plum]

In what way is supporting the Palestinians "anti-Semitic"?

[Cacophonix]

In what way is supporting the Palestinians "anti-Semitic"?

Good point and since when has criticising Israeli's government been antisemitic!

As for Maureen Lipman, seems she took up whine-ology years ago.

Not suggesting there are not genuine antisemites in Labour but I would suggest there as many in the Tory party.

Give me non whingers like Kinky Friedman any day.




Caco

[Pontius Navigator]

Dipping my toe gently in the water.

Criticizing Israel or recognising Palestinian issues should not be antisemitic. I agree with UDP.

I knew two Jews. I only knew they were Jews as someone told me. I know my aunt hated Jews but that was from experience of working with them in Cyprus during the war and possibly when at school in Luxemburg after WW1.

But should became non-topic. Jews were accepted in Parliament before Roman Catholics. Tony Blair's conversion was News but outside the media, who cared?

[Cacophonix]

Dipping my toe gently in the water.

Criticizing Israel or recognising Palestinian issues should not be antisemitic. I agree with UDP.

I knew two Jews. I only knew they were Jews as someone told me. I know my aunt hated Jews but that was from experience of working with them in Cyprus during the war and possibly when at school in Luxemburg after WW1.

But should became non-topic. Jews were accepted in Parliament before Roman Catholics. Tony Blair's conversion was News but outside the media, who cared?

+1

Caco, Jewish grandfather, Catholic grandmother.


Caco

[Capetonian]

Let's be very careful of conflating anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism/anti-Israeli.

I am not anti-Semitic, although have been accused of being, but I am anti-Zionist/Israeli for several reasons, both political and personal. Some of the most unpleasant people I have met over the years have been Israeli. That they may also be Jews is not relevant, I have met many delightful Jewish people and am pleased and privileged to have some very close friends who are Jewish, some practising, others not. I have also met some pretty repellent Jewish people, as I have met repellent people of many other creeds.

Furthermore, Arabs (Nilo-Hamitic) are also broadly speaking Semitic.

[AtomKraft]

Well, this is going to be a tricky topic, for sure but I really ought to nail my colours to the mast.

I cannot stand the blighters! This comes from literally years to dealing with them in business.

Most Jews, to be fair, are well aware of their characteristics.
Grumpy.
Impatient.
Greedy
Extremely blunt.
Too fond- much too fond, of money.

Now there are also redeeming features. Some great thinkers, musicians, doctors and scientists, some of our very brightest, are Jewish.

What I don't really get is why one isn't allowed to express any opinion or viewpoint against them? It's no surprise that they are generally disliked and they are well aware of their own dislikable attributes.

Zionism, is a different thing, but also utterly loathesome and really another subject entirely. Israels policy towards their neighbours is also appalling, but yet another subject.

The poor buggers have been persecuted and generally shat on since records began, but there's rarely a word on "why?".

As I set out in the OP, if it was me I'd be blaming myself for being unlikable, rather than blaming all the folk who don't like me!

[om15]

Having worked in Tel Aviv on many occasions I can say that I got on reasonably well with the people that I met and worked with, but at all times I avoided any discussions about the land grab going on at the time I was there, my only adverse comment is that in general the Israelis are absolutely appalling at any customer faced activity, hotels, airport check in and so on.

Back to Labour, in July 2018, Labour councillor for Bognor Regis, Damien Enticott, made a number of online anti-semitic posts, including stating that Hitler "would have had a solution to the Israel problem." He stated in a post on Facebook that Jews drank blood and raped babies and that "Talmud Jews are parasites [...] All Talmuds need executing!" He initially claimed that the account had been hacked but later admitted that he had made the posts.
Enticott resigned while suspended pending investigation and later said he was "anti-Zionist not anti-Semitic". This appears to indicate that there is a problem in the Labour party, but how deep it is I don't know.

As Corbyn is a special chum of the IRA could we say that he is anti Protestant, its all a bit too simplistic, my guess some of it is driven by political opponents, if there is little to it then Corbyn should be more circumspect in his comments.

[Capetonian]

I recently had some postings I'd made removed from a business travel forum, for stating that the TLV routes are about the most unpopular with airline staff and crews due to the characteristics and behaviour of many of the passengers on that route. Apparently saying that was 'anti-Semitic'.

I used to deal with Jewish people in business. Most of them were decent and fair, some were very pleasant. A significant minority (30% perhaps) were vile.

Israelis, whom I used to have the misfortune to deal with in customer facing positions when I worked for airlines, were almost without exception, cold, charmless, rude, devious, bullying, and thoroughly unpleasant. I preferred Nigerians, who at least had a sense of humour and warmth.

[Pontius Navigator]

I think Capetonian has probably got it right.

Our stereotypical view of Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Indians, Pakistanis, Germans, French, Nigerians, Americans etc etc are broadly sustained from observation and specific behaviour types.

You might add ignorant, tattooed, beer swilling, arrogant, perfidious English etc etc.

Of the individual one may be a good egg (not talking Corbyn here) or reinforce that stereotypical view.

You cannot brainwash what an individual thinks but you can proscribed what that say or do.

BMEs have got it nailed where the way someone looks at them can be racist or discriminatory.

I'll stop there.

[AtomKraft]

I used to work for a certain British Airline that plied between London and Zurich. Our busiest route.
Ask any cabin crew who were the most unpleasant pax, and those Jews, I think Hasidic, were top of the tree consistently.
Mysogenists, deeply rude and unpleasant every one.

Your mileage might vary, as they say, but I cannot think of any single nice thing to say about them. My fault, or theirs?

Despite all this, I don't really care either way, but it ticks me off that all 'anti-them' comment gets jumped on, when frankly a lot of it is well founded!

[Krystal n Chips]

Having worked in Tel Aviv on many occasions I can say that I got on reasonably well with the people that I met and worked with, but at all times I avoided any discussions about the land grab going on at the time I was there, my only adverse comment is that in general the Israelis are absolutely appalling at any customer faced activity, hotels, airport check in and so on.

Back to Labour, in July 2018, Labour councillor for Bognor Regis, Damien Enticott, made a number of online anti-semitic posts, including stating that Hitler "would have had a solution to the Israel problem." He stated in a post on Facebook that Jews drank blood and raped babies and that "Talmud Jews are parasites [...] All Talmuds need executing!" He initially claimed that the account had been hacked but later admitted that he had made the posts.
Enticott resigned while suspended pending investigation and later said he was "anti-Zionist not anti-Semitic". This appears to indicate that there is a problem in the Labour party, but how deep it is I don't know.

As Corbyn is a special chum of the IRA could we say that he is anti Protestant, its all a bit too simplistic, my guess some of it is driven by political opponents, if there is little to it then Corbyn should be more circumspect in his comments.

I used to handle a certain airline, engineering wise that is, mainly because nobody else wanted to due to the security and have to say never a problem. Got to know one of their F/E's quite well in fact....nice guy who asked me if I wanted a coffee one day and then asked a CC member to supply..sadly, for the CC replying to the effect engineers engaged in sexual relations with their mothers was "not a good idea " as the F/E simply lifted off his feet by his lapels and asked if I wanted to be fed as well...one duly accepted both offers with a that appealed to the F/E.

Since you mention, not for the first time, Corbyn and the PIRA, please, do some research as to who else was attempting to broker a peace deal behind the scenes at the time, only to have their efforts thwarted by the rancid unlamented deceased.

But, since the topic is anti-semetism ( with a bit about Labour conveniently added ) which is entirely separate from anti-Israel, there's been a deafening silence about this little insight as to the Tories preferred "anti " ......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... lamophobia

[Capetonian]

rancid unlamented deceased

To whom are you referring?

[AtomKraft]

Any chance guys, that we could leave the Labour Party out of this please?

I know the Labour Party are accused of anti-semitism, and certainly recent antics there brought the subject to mind, but in my opinion, the Labour Party are utter dimwits, and I've Zero interest in them or any other idiot deluded Marxists, for that matter.

My beef is with being told what to think, or what not to.

With being told what we can say, and what we can't.

[AtomKraft]

Two of my best friends, worked for the SSEB. Now known as Scottish Power.
These guys were just regular electricians and had a variety of duties, including 'appliance repair'.
They both absolutely could not stand the Jews, as both had to attend 'appliance repair' call outs in Newton Mearns- that's the area in Glasgow where the Jews prefer to live.
The Jews would call them out, just as the end of the warranty approached on their cooker, washing machine or whatever.
There would then be a difficult discussion as the lady of the house tried to get them to renew various bits of the appliance, without any justification at all.
These guys ended up utterly detesting the Jews they dealt with, and they definitely didn't start out feeling this way.

"Horrible people", was the usual comment.

[Krystal n Chips]

Any chance guys, that we could leave the Labour Party out of this please?

I know the Labour Party are accused of anti-semitism, and certainly recent antics there brought the subject to mind, but in my opinion, the Labour Party are utter dimwits, and I've Zero interest in them or any other idiot deluded Marxists, for that matter.

My beef is with being told what to think, or what not to.

With being told what we can say, and what we can't.

Freedom of speech has not been curtailed in the UK, freedom of thought remains personal, but assumes the capacity not to translate these thoughts into words and actions which are racially / physically / philosophically offensive and disparaging to the recipients .

[Capetonian]

A friend of mine was a sales engineer for a security alarm company in CPT.

As he was senior, he was able to choose which customers he was willing to attend. He would get the list in the morning and look by geographical area. Sea Point, Fresnaye, Camps Bay, Clifton were largely Jewish and he'd cross off Rabinowitz, Shimansky, Levy, Ticktin, Urbaniak, Friedmann, ........ He would rather even in those days have gone to the coloured, Indian, or black areas than dealt with the Jews.

[Undried Plum]

rancid unlamented deceased

To whom are you referring?

I suspect it's someone who went up the chimney of a crematorium.

Y'know, the one whose death resulted in a 1930s hit song being banned by the BBC and becoming a modern day hit single.

Ding dong!

One day an infamous handbag will surface on Ebay, rather like those red shoes which once trod the yellow brick road.

[AtomKraft]

Krystal.
I don't normally reply to you, but in this case, let's make an exception.

Freedom of thought, is- as you say, still free.

Freedom of speech on the other hand..., you say it's 'not been curtailed in the UK', you are so out of touch. It's been severely curtailed!

There are plenty of subjects these days, on which the best plan is to keep entirely Schtum, on pain of arrest.