Mosque shooting in Christchurch NZ.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ben, sadly I think they might be late to the game. Figure I saw on one link had a huge legal import figure and more weapons than licence holders.

At least. unlike Europe they haven't had a war zone in their borders.

[Capetonian]

At least as an island nation they don't have the problem that Europe has of open borders.

[FD2]

OFSO - Interesting how much fuss has been made about the massacre of Moslems being streamed live. Quite correct of course but where were the complaints when ISIS was streaming the beheadings of Christians live, or the burning to death in a cage of a Syrian pilot ? I seem to remember a huge reaction over the ISIS atrocities being streamed live. The genie is out of the bottle and Facebook and other 'social media' providers are to blame for that - or more likely governments around the world for letting this crap happen. Other media outlets seem to be out of control these days with helicopters streaming live coverage of atrocities, bank robberies, hostage situations etc etc - just to feed some voyeuristic ghouls in their armchairs at home. Personally I hope that the forces attacking Baghouz do a good job and wipe the vermin out permanently, for being part of a movement trying to take the world back to the Stone Age, but I don't feel the need to watch it at home.

BenThere - You put forward the viewpoint (NRA?) that things might have been different if there had been armed worshippers at the mosques that day. This is a remarkably tolerant society and they don't 'do' the modern fashionable mass shootings of worshippers, school children etc. The last mass shooting was down near Dunedin at Aramoana, when someone who should have been in the lunatic asylum went berserk and killed 13 people in 1990. He was tolerated as a bit of an eccentric until he flipped. Small beer really - imagine how much worse the situation would have been with a couple of assault rifles. Tarrant's actions may well 'force' the Government to introduce stricter gun control measures, which would be a great shame because there is a strong tradition of hunting - deer, wild pigs etc - which is largely free of human bloodshed, apart from the occasional blue on blue. I also suspect that his actions may result in greater 'sympathy' immigration, which would be wrong because the low number of immigrants so far has enabled them to be well integrated and not overwhelm the infrastructure. I would have thought that the followers of any religion would be appalled at the idea of weapons in their churches, synagogues, mosques etc.

I don't think that the average Kiwi wants to have to keep a handgun handy just in case someone breaking in is also armed. There are already lots of weapons here but the assault rifles are largely in the hands of the gangs - Black Power, Hell's Angels, Mongrel Mob etc for protection from each other. I would suggest that the answer to this atrocity is not to relax gun control but make it more selective and more effective. As I said earlier you don't need a semi-automatic rifle for hunting in New Zealand. Anyone who wants to play at soldiers can join the Army.

New Zealand has been a comparatively peaceful country in a 21st Century world of increasing racial, religious and foreigner hatred and bloodshed. Most Kiwis would like it to stay that way.

[BenThere]

BenThere - You put forward the viewpoint (NRA?) that things might have been different if there had been armed worshippers at the mosques that day. This is a remarkably tolerant society and they don't 'do' the modern fashionable mass shootings of worshippers, school children etc.

Apparently, they do now. The thing is that good people with guns can intervene. Unarmed people in churches, schools, or on sidewalks, etc. are targets. And none of us know where the next murderer will strike. So do we stay at home and cower with a pistol on our lap? No. Do we arm ourselves and try to be ready to save lives? Yes.

As you probably know, Detroit is where I grew up and have watched it deteriorate into a hellhole over the past 60 years. When I was a kid owning a gun never entered my mind. Later it became clear that if you lived in Detroit, and you were a good person with a family, not owning a gun, if seen as it should be in an urban US setting as purely for self-defense, is an abdication of your responsibility to protect your family. It's not a racial thing either. The violence that happens every single day in Detroit falls most heavily on the black people who live there, most of whom are just trying to get by, often with no alternatives.

Today, Detroit has a sheriff who promotes 2nd Amendment rights to protect oneself, the first in a very long time. Also, Michigan has had a Republican governor and legislature for eight years, though the governor flipped Democrat in 2018. During that time a lot of conservative judges were appointed who apply sentences that don't release killers after a few months. It all is starting to tell, and Michigan is in the best shape, socially and economically, that it has been for most of my life. Why the people voted Democrat last year after such good results escapes me. I blame the education system, which remains left-wing.

[Karearea]

NZ culture is nothing like the US in many respects.

I know nobody who would be interested in having firearms for self-protection.

We don't live like that.

[FD2]

Ben - one swallow doesn't make a massacre summer, to mix metaphors. There was never the degree of concentrated industrial development here as in places like Detroit. The loss of coal mining on the West Coast here for instance hasn't caused the upheaval that it would have in a big city, with consequential mass unemployment. In case I painted too idyllic a picture of society here I should add that we have deaf bigots here, on both sides of the political spectrum, but politicians are just about down the centre - both National and Labour are not really wide of it.

A few months ago our local U3A had arranged a religious information morning session when representatives of Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity x2 and Islam would speak for a few minutes each about the tenets of their faiths. When the Muslim started speaking (from his wheelchair, as Farid Ahmed has been paraplegic for the last 20 years following a crash), several of the audience got up and walked out tutting. His wife was shot dead at the mosque after taking some children to safety and then returning to look for her husband. I'm not trying to boost the case by sympathy here, merely to say that there is certainly an element of hatred here as well.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/ ... t-hate-him

I don't think that New Zealand will descend to hell hole status and hope that level heads will keep a sensible control both of extremists and too much immigration. I'm just a newcomer and frequently get annoyed with the courts giving lenient sentences for what I see as pretty awful crimes but in general people seem to rub along well and I don't think there is any wish (or need) for people to arm themselves just for self protection. There are no 'no-go ghettos' as far as I know. They are bloody awful drivers though - each one a potential racing car driver - both male and female!

PS I do know that most of the present spate of murders in England are black on black. Low police numbers, caving in to moans about targeted stop and search tactics and general easy treatment of offenders seem to be to blame. I don't know why so many blacks are being murdered in the States by other blacks - stop and search powers seem to be used very freely and there doesn't seem to be a shortage of police.

[FD2]

Karearea +1

[FD2]

Now 50 dead.

[FD2]

The thickos in the Daily Telegraph don't seem to notice that the mass murderer in the dock is giving a white supremacist salute and kindly illustrated their article with it:

salute.jpeg (33.32 KiB) Viewed 344 times

[Pontius Navigator]

FD2, you have to know it to know it. Until you said it I had never even heard of WSS.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ben, you talk of the good citizen fighting back. I am not going to lose a counter argument but to seek any information you may have. As we know, in any fire fight there is confusion and even with disciplined soldiers we have blue on blue.

In our TV screen with your cop dramas we see the plain clothes heroes jumping in to the fight, sometimes holding their bages. Other times hands up in front of uniformed cops.

Have you had good guy on good guy shoot outs? And cop blue on blue?

[Krystal n Chips]

The thickos in the Daily Telegraph don't seem to notice that the mass murderer in the dock is giving a white supremacist salute and kindly illustrated their article with it:


salute.jpeg

UK C4 News did....and duly declined to show it in their report last night.

[BenThere]

Have you had good guy on good guy shoot outs? And cop blue on blue?

I've never drawn or pointed a weapon at anyone, so I can't help you there.

As for blue on blue, which I expand to include me being armed when the police arrive to a violent crime scene, I've given that some thought. My arms will go up in the air to declare I am not a threat. If I'm carrying a weapon, and I'm most likely not doing so, I will divulge that at the soonest opportunity after the dust has settled.

Finally, I consider it of the utmost importance to be certain of not only your target but who and what is behind it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ben, thanks but I was really asking about friendly fire incidents in the US. I would guess 'uniforms ' would be safe from all but hostile fire. My worry would be armed, observing or firing from cover and good guys, civvi or cop, behind me.

Or escaping, gun in hand, and meeting another good guy doing same.

[FD2]

KnC - I was tempted to give a smart-arse convoluted answer to your observation, but credit where credit is due. Well done Channel 4 for not falling for that one. It's grossly offensive that someone who has just murdered 50 people should still be able to pass on his message when in court through the channels of the media.

I hope they put him in a straightjacket for his next appearance but I dare say that would infringe his 'human' rights. The gangs have said he is a 'marked man' in prison - what a shame, how sad - they'll just have to keep him in solitary confinement.

The two cops who caught him deserve the highest accolade for their bravery.

Fakebook is doing a very swift arse-covering exercise I see - crying 'poor us - look at how hard we have worked to contain it' (a problem of our own making).

[ExSp33db1rd]

Karearea +2

FD2 ...I'm just a newcomer and frequently get annoyed with the courts giving lenient sentences for what I see as pretty awful crimes but in general people seem to rub along well and I don't think there is any wish (or need) for people to arm themselves just for self protection. There are no 'no-go ghettos' as far as I know. They are bloody awful drivers though - each one a potential racing car driver - both male and female!

FD2 +1, ('specially the slapping with a wet bus ticket for many bad crimes, and the almost universal name suppression of the finally proved guilty, almost as a matter of course.)

Whilst the 2 cops that arrested him did an excellent job, and deserve whatever accolade is appropriate, at the same time I received a note from a friend in the USA who pointed out that their cops tend to shoot to kill, to save the cost of indictment, lawyer profits, and having to use honest taxpayer money ( like mine ) to keep someone fed and watered for the rest of their natural lives. ( tho' I think might not be such a lengthy problem in this case, there is already reported comments from "The Gangs" that "We have friends already inside" )

[FD2]

Yes - even the white supremacists are annoyed with him for bringing their movement into disrepute! Suspect, like you, that he won't be a taxpayer burden for too many years...

[Slasher]

Even though this arsehole is a piece of sh!t, surely he weighed up the pros and cons. Both Oz and NZ don't have the death penalty which means he knows he' will live. But is NZ more huggy fluff re punishment? I've heard that NZ is more 'rehabilitate the mass murderer' oriented than Oz although I can't find anything written proving this is the case. Both country's penal systems are still run by the bleeding-heart brigades AFAIK.

Sentenced to 20 but out in 10 for clicheic 'good behavior' and the 'found jesus christ' *****?

[Capetonian]

Perhaps they should put him in a prison with a few other Muslims. Problem solved. Just to make sure the Muslims don't get hurt, handcuff his hands behind his back.

[FD2]

Preventive (non-parole) sentences in New Zealand can be very lengthy when the crime merits it:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=10480771

It's almost certain Tarrant will break the record non-parole sentence here, but spend his time in solitary confinement, because

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12213526

As Australia has had a policy of shipping their crims off to their place of birth - usually New Zealand or the U.K. because they never became Aussie citizens, then I suspect he'll be shipped back to Oz in due course, where I suspect his life won't be any safer.