Mosque shooting in Christchurch NZ.

[boing]

Well, if everyone else had bent sticks I suppose they were, relatively speaking.

Look John, the shooting was a terrible thing, no doubt about it particularly as these folks seem to have been the types who were integrating quite well. The point is that the method of killing is almost irrelevant, the problem is the greater question of what drives people to carry out these acts and how can they be diverted before they act. Is the surveillance of the whole of a society justified to prevent a once in a decade event perpetrated by half a dozen people? Do we have the profiling criteria that could be used to try to identify potential killers? What happens if you actually discover that there are more plots initiated by immigrants than residents or would immigrants not be monitored to avoid racism?

Not until immigrants are truly assimilated into a society will the resentment disappear. One way to expedite the assimilation is to control the immigration to a rate that the country can absorb thus removing the deadly cycle of lack of jobs leading to poverty leading to ghettos leading to radical influences and crime.

And, in case you think I am theorising I am not. My daughter and her husband sponsored a young Palestinian male immigrant who had been a refugee in Jordan. For six months he was the happiest guy in the World, they accommodated him, bought him tools they provided transport. Unfortunately his carpentry business did not succeed. He joined a local mosque and was soon spouting against western culture. The final straw was that after he had been married to a local girl for a while he announced he was going back to Jordan to find a second wife. Sort of lost interest in him there.

.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Speedy - I hadn't read about the buy back of illegal weapons - bad move.

Not confirmed, could be Fake News ?

[BenThere]

BenThere - why would New Zealanders need to own semi-automatic weapons?

The 'need' is perceived by the owner/buyer in a free society. Does your wife 'need' another new summer dress when she already has 20 in the closet? Do you 'need' a 4 wheel drive pickup truck? Probably not. More pertinent is 'want'. And in a free society we buy what we want if we can afford it. We allocate our spending accordingly.

My only semi-automatic weapons are a .45 pistol (with 6 and 7 round magazines) and a 15 round .22 semi-automatic rifle. I also have a 12 gage 5 round Remington tactical pump shotgun. To me, my arsenal is totally adequate and I, too, am skeptical about bump stocks. The semi-automatic function merely allows you to fire without re-cocking and chamber-loading, which does come in handy when you consider why and how you will use the weapon. Actually I've been shopping for a pistol for my wife, who also holds a concealed carry permit in Michigan. I'm thinking the right weapon for her would be a compact .38 revolver. They are simple, require little maintenance, and fire reliably. Reloading is intuitive and there is no racking of the slide. Also they are available in very compact models, and don't yet come under the scrutiny of the gun controllers who want to eliminate Americans' 2nd amendment rights.

But what you want as gun rights in New Zealand or anywhere else is up to you. If you feel the potential need to protect yourself, protect your gun rights, if you don't, feel free to let them go, but once you do that, it will be very hard to get them back.

[FD2]

Ben - there is no 'right' to carry or own a weapon here, it's a privilege. Humans 'want' lots of things and it might seem like an infringement of their lifestyle to limit those privileges but I'm sure there is an overwhelming feeling that it should not be necessary to carry a firearm for personal protection which would be seen as a degradation of New Zealand life - and that is seen as a real eventuality unless gun ownership is controlled more strictly. As for not having to re-cock a hunting weapon in order to take another shot then I think most people could learn to live with that - a bit like having to re-load my old 12 bore when out shooting. Those who own semi-automatics legally will be compensated and not out of pocket.

Far from being very green there are quite a few things that are not! Many large SUVs are parked on urban house driveways but that only hits the owners in their pockets. Many are not ever taken off sealed roads or perhaps once a year for summer holidays, but it's a status thing. What is seen as completely fatuous though is a call from the Green Party idiots for what's left of the armed forces to stop dropping bombs for practice. Now that's seen as going too far...excuse the thread drift John +2.

[BenThere]

FD2, good post. I agree that if you feel no need to be armed you are blessed. Alas, I feel a need, living where I do. But here in the US, for now, arming one's self is a right, not a privilege granted by politicians. I'm happy for you that your environment is so free from crime and violence that self-defense isn't a concern, but it is for me.

As for SUVs, my wife drives a year old Mercedes GLE 350, all wheel drive, which is a benefit during our Michigan winters with snow and ice covered roads on her 8 mile commute into Ann Arbor. She likes that it sits high and the safety of the design and bulk are assuring for me as well as her. It's not the most efficient vehicle, we get about 18 miles/gallon average; but it serves its purpose and when we go downtown on a night out, it's what we drive as it's fairly dressy. All I do since I retired is some unpaid volunteer work at the Detroit airport a couple of days a month, and park it at the airport for my monthly Mexico vacation. For that I drive my 10 year old Chevy.

I always bristle when I hear people talk about how many guns I need, how big a car I need, how big a house I need, etc. In a free country it's all about how big I want and can afford. What I need is no one else's business. If you get down to it, all we really need is a tent, sleeping bag, a sack of rice and some bugs to eat. Soldiers have proven that, and Communists embrace the idea.

[ExSp33db1rd]

SUV's, yes a lot of NZ SUV's never even get on to the gravel topped urban roads that abound around NZ, never mind getting their wheels dirty in real mud. Driven by Queen St. Farmers Wives, most of them ( Queen St. being the main shopping street in Auckland )

Takes me back 40 plus years, when dropping off my children at school in my Mini, the equivalent to the present SUV of the day was the Volvo Estate, complete with black Labrador gazing serenely out of the back, equally never driven off-road or to a "shoot" or "hunt" but presumably gave Madam some imagined kudos when driven into Marks and Spencers, or Sainsburys, car park.

I still think the Volvo Estate car of the era was probably the best design yet, no pretentious, swirly, designer induced funny shaped edges or corners, almost a square box, with a very practical, vertical, rear end hanging at 90 deg. to the end of the roof, given maximum storage space, no wasted space given to design nonsense. I guess the pundits will say that it was an aerodynamic disaster, but with fuel less then 5 bob a gallon, who cared ? Al Gore wasn't around then.

[John Hill]

Ben, we do not have 'rights' in NZ, what we have is freedom to do whatever we like limited only by a fairly liberal set or laws that have been made for the protection of fellow citizens and their property.

[Slasher]

Ben I've always felt unsafe without armament especially in Oz. I did finally get a permit but left the country before I could follow through. While the chances of someone busting into one's home to rob it and kill one dead is roughly 14% in the N Thailand town we live in, nonetheless even 1% I consider is too high for me and my family.

My wife and boy have been trained in the use of our rifles (we don't own pistols) and more importantly when to use them and what part of the perp to aim for. The cops there do emphasise 'neutralisation not eradication' in a life threatening situation where possible. But if one has to shoot to kill then one shoots and kills.

Touch wood none of us have had to fire a shot in anger so far.

Again the risk is low, but I can sleep comfortably while away from home knowing my loved ones can defend their lives from those intent on snuffing them.

[k3k3]

Does New Zealand have a written constitution or does it rely on a combination of Common and Statute Law like the UK?

I've no reason to ask except for curiosity.

[BenThere]

Slasher,

All the weapons I own are primarily for the purpose of self-defense. The .22 rifle isn't a powerful stopping force, but ranges out to a distance that pistols and shotguns can't reach. When I'm away from home my wife has the 12 gage shotgun under the bed and she knows how it works. My thinking is that if a home invader standing outside the bedroom door hears her pump a round into the chamber it would give him serious pause and he might abandon his objective; I know I would. Perhaps the greatest benefit is that she knows she is not helpless or defenseless. I've been conditioned by life experiences and have watched the depravities that occur in Detroit every day - violent criminals preying on citizens trapped in an almost lawless environment. It's almost as bad as London seems to be these days.

If I lived in bucolic New Zealand I would probably have a different perspective regarding self-defense. I find it interesting, though, that in US jurisdictions that have the strictest gun control violent crime tends to be much higher than in places that don't inhibit gun ownership. My own community, Canton, Michigan, has one of the lowest crime rates in the US. But it is well known that most Canton residents are armed. Go figure.

[John Hill]

Does New Zealand have a written constitution or does it rely on a combination of Common and Statute Law like the UK?

I've no reason to ask except for curiosity.

This is from the official website:-

New Zealand's constitution is not found in one document. Instead, it has a number of sources, including crucial pieces of legislation, several legal documents, common law derived from court decisions as well as established constitutional practices known as conventions. Increasingly, New Zealand's constitution reflects the Treaty of Waitangi as a founding document of government in New Zealand.

https://gg.govt.nz/office-governor-gene ... nstitution

[k3k3]

Thanks, that'll give me some light reading.

[BenThere]

So your 'constitution' is whatever the current politicians say it is. You don't have a document you can hold on to and point out where it is being violated. If you're happy with that, more power to you. If I were subject to that, though, I'd be pissed.

[John Hill]

Fortunately Ben we are not bound to any centuries old sacred documents written by hypocrites in horse hair wigs.

[BenThere]

Say what you will, but those guys changed the world, and I feel the benefits of the Freedom they wrought every single day.

[John Hill]

Those hypocrites pompously propounded the equal creation of mankind and the universal rights to freedom while owning hundreds of slaves.

[Sisemen]

Did anyone else notice the bloke giving the Isis salute as he was loaded into the ambulance?

[FD2]

Thanks Sisemen, I’ve learned something else new. I don’t doubt that it was a reply to the attack.

[John Hill]

Plato giving ISIS salute!



Sisemen you are talking tūtae, see https://www.arabic-for-nerds.com/2016/1 ... g%C2%ADer/

[Sisemen]

“The Islamic State militants, known as ISIS, are now using a single, raised index finger as the symbol of their cause. It’s a well-known sign of power and victory around the world, but for ISIS, it has a more sinister meaning.

Nathaniel Zelinsky writes in Foreign Affairs that the gesture refers to the tawhid, "the belief in the oneness of God and a key component of the Muslim religion." More specifically, though, it refers to their fundamentalist interpretation of the tawhid, which rejects any other view, including other Islamic interpretations, as idolatry. Zelinsky writes that when ISIS uses the gesture, it is affirming an ideology that demands the destruction of the West, as well as any form of pluralism. For potential recruits around the globe, it also shows their belief that they will dominate the world.”