Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

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Capetonian

Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#41 Post by Capetonian » Sun May 05, 2019 6:13 pm

Maybe, but having proven treason in peacetime (define) I am not sure the death penalty should be automatic.
I am not sure if ISIS or whatever they call themselves this week have officially declared war against civilisation, but there certainly exists a de facto state of war, so we are not in 'peacetime.
Any British citizen who supports or joins them commits treason.
The argument is that the representation is paid for from the public purse.
I can't see too many individuals stumping up for the bitch's defence.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#42 Post by Undried Plum » Sun May 05, 2019 6:53 pm

Without that legal representation being paid for, she would be unrepresented as she has no funds. It is therefore specious to say that withholding funds is somehow different to withholding her ability to have legal representation.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#43 Post by Capetonian » Sun May 05, 2019 7:01 pm

So by extension of your argument, she has committed an act that many, if not most, would consider treasonable, and she should have her defence paid for by the public purse of the country against which she has committed an act of treason.

Idealistic in the extreme.

I'm off to cook dinner and open a bottle of Shiraz! Cheers.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#44 Post by G-CPTN » Sun May 05, 2019 7:07 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:01 pm
the country against which she has committed an act of treason.
Where has it been established that her actions were aimed at Britain?

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#45 Post by Capetonian » Sun May 05, 2019 7:34 pm

Fair enough, but her actions were aimed at western civilisation generally. That includes Britain, the country whose citizenship she holds, from which she started her journey to support Isis, and to which she expects to return.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#46 Post by Undried Plum » Sun May 05, 2019 7:35 pm

I rather like our system of juries. It is a right which goes back many centuries. All the way back to Magna Carta, I think.

I've served on two juries, and am therefore exempt for life from doing so again. In the second one I was elected as "Chairman" which is the Scottish equivalent of a foreman in the US and England.

Our 15 person jury in that case found that the judge had been extremely heavily biased against the defendant and quite certainly would have found an innocent man guilty if it had been left to him. We found that the police had stitched the defendant up and had lied in Court and had colluded with eachother in writing lies into their notebooks about what witnesses had said. We spotted that the forensic "evidence" was just bullsh1t. We voted 14:1 in favour of a Not Guilty plea. The minority 1 wanted to have a Not Proven verdict as the defendant was undoubtedly a nasty bastard who was deeply immersed in the gangster underworld and was guilty of being an arsehole but probably not guilty of the ***** charges against him in that particular case.

A couple of years later I met the defence Advocate (barrister) at a boozy social event. I wasn't allowed to tell him what had gone on in the jury room of course, but I did mention that when I started to read our verdict on the five charges he had a smug smirk on his face and the Advocate Depute (prosecution barrister) had a face like thunder. He told me that in the five day trial he'd been reading our faces and he knew what our verdict was going to be. He was doubly smug as he knew that a guilty verdict would subsequently be appealed against successfully as the judge had been so over the top in his obvious bias against the accused.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#47 Post by OFSO » Sun May 05, 2019 7:39 pm

See my comment on judicial impartiality I'm about to post on the Spanish thread.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#48 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun May 05, 2019 7:48 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:53 pm
Without that legal representation being paid for, she would be unrepresented as she has no funds. It is therefore specious to say that withholding funds is somehow different to withholding her ability to have legal representation.
Is there an automatic assumption of legal representation?

As I understand it, the very rich can employ the best and the very poor have representation funded from the public purse. The comfortably well off can be beggared just trying to prove their innocence.

Is representation fair?

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#49 Post by Undried Plum » Sun May 05, 2019 8:33 pm




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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#50 Post by ian16th » Sun May 05, 2019 9:08 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:53 pm
Without that legal representation being paid for, she would be unrepresented as she has no funds. It is therefore specious to say that withholding funds is somehow different to withholding her ability to have legal representation.
We must agree to differ on this.
Cynicism improves with age

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#51 Post by Krystal n Chips » Mon May 06, 2019 6:39 am

Capetonian wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 5:29 pm
" Whilst I understand all the arguments against the death penalty, I disagree with most of them.."

That's more than a contradiction in terms, because, if, as you claim, you understand the arguments against the death penalty, you wouldn't disagree with them..which begs the question, which arguments do you agree with ?
It's not a contradiction in terms at all, it may just be that you can't grasp the concept of understanding something but disagreeing with it.
To put it simply, I can understand why people steal from others, but I don't agree with it.

To save you asking, I am passionately against it.
I can't exactly say I am shocked to the core by that revelation from you. I have friends who are passionately against the death penalty and I respect their belief, and yours in this case, whilst disagreeing with it.
I note, that, as always, whenever you are asked a direct question, your reactive stance is to prevaricate as your response above further illustrates.

Consequently, here are my reasons for being opposed to the death penalty.

Irrespective of legislation, any human being intent on murder, murder being a premeditated act, will carry out that murder. The penalty is not a deterrent.

The media.

The media have always been selective as to which murders they give prominence to, and why. The Soham murders for example were "perfect " because they involved two middle class innocent children. In Bristol however, they turned their attention on a subsequently proven innocent gentleman whom they decided was guilty because he gave the appearance of being eccentric and thus, by default, guilty. The extensive coverage invariably influences public opinion. The public, you may recall, constitute the jury at any subsequent trial.

The media also exert pressure on the police to solve the crime. The police are human beings and therefore, at times, fallible. Public outrage, as conveyed by the media, demands retribution. Gathering the evidence therefore may not always result in the evidence being entirely factual to appease this outrage.

Then there's the imposition of the sentence.

As this is governed by the state, formality and protocols are involved. These are both barbaric and grotesque enough in their own right, and even more so in America where the public are invited to attend and watch the state sanctioned murder being carried out. As these events generally take place in the small hours, the ghouls attending probably stop at " Ma's 24/7 Diner " for breakfast on the way home.

Finally, there's the inconvenient little matter that, once executed, the victim when subsequently proven innocent cannot be resurrected. A bit of paper saying "sorry, we made a mistake..no hard feelings " is going to be of scant comfort or relief "x" years later to the family and relatives. The only saving grace, and I use the term reservedly, with a miscarriage of justice is that at least the innocent are still alive. Quite what their psychological state is however, after years of false imprisonment, would be easy to comprehend.

Now that you have read my views as to the death penalty, and you claim to agree with some counter arguments, which I frankly doubt is the case , again, I pose the question as to what these are..... and why ? That, and why you support the death penalty.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#52 Post by Capetonian » Mon May 06, 2019 9:03 am

KnC I don't have the time or inclination to emulate you in writing War and Peace. If you take a brief answer as prevarication so be it, and you should know since you are the master of deflecting questions asked by others.

In a nutshell I agree with the death penalty in case of no doubt for the following reasons :

Permanent removal of perpetrator from the face of the earth, and 100% elimination of any possibility of reoffending.
If enacted immediately and without years on death row it can be inexpensive, saving taxpayers' money keeping appeals going whilst someone rots in prison.
It's not a punishment, it's a solution.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#53 Post by Krystal n Chips » Mon May 06, 2019 9:35 am

Capetonian wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:03 am
KnC I don't have the time or inclination to emulate you in writing War and Peace. If you take a brief answer as prevarication so be it, and you should know since you are the master of deflecting questions asked by others.

In a nutshell I agree with the death penalty in case of no doubt for the following reasons :

Permanent removal of perpetrator from the face of the earth, and 100% elimination of any possibility of reoffending.
If enacted immediately and without years on death row it can be inexpensive, saving taxpayers' money keeping appeals going whilst someone rots in prison.
It's not a punishment, it's a solution
.
I take any answer that eludes the question being answered as prevarication given such a response invariably suggests a respondent is incapable of both supporting and articulating their statements and / or their statements are complete fallacies. Your brief response suggests the former proposition is the most apt..... at least with regard to the death penalty.

However, I note you include "in the case of no doubt " which is rather pertinent given, that, any thorough investigation should reveal numerous contributory factors which could, and should, be legally challenged in support of the defence. Mental health being an obvious starting point along with the veracity of evidence thereafter.

It's no surprise however to see you equate negating human rights with expenditure in conjunction with, almost, summary execution. The latter being rather embarrassing if, subsequently, facts emerge which show not only the principle of "beyond reasonable doubt " was not followed. , but also the deceased was innocent.

Capetonian

Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#54 Post by Capetonian » Mon May 06, 2019 9:59 am

KnC your response is ill-considered but verbose as usual, clearly you have not understood mine and I really have neither time nor inclination for a futile debate on such a basis.
Let's just disagree, as usual.
Thank you at, least on this occasion, for responding without being as unpleasant as you usually are to those whose views do not fit your view of the world.
Toodle pip, old chap!

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#55 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon May 06, 2019 10:06 am

Cape, you should be fined for that!

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#56 Post by Krystal n Chips » Mon May 06, 2019 10:56 am

Capetonian wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:59 am
KnC your response is ill-considered but verbose as usual, clearly you have not understood mine and I really have neither time nor inclination for a futile debate on such a basis.
Let's just disagree, as usual.
Thank you at, least on this occasion, for responding without being as unpleasant as you usually are to those whose views do not fit your view of the world.
Toodle pip, old chap!
When somebody resorts to dismissive bluster, then this invariably indicates not only do they lack the ability to produce a coherent counter perspective, but that they also are more concerned with attempting to ingratiate themselves with kindred spirits.

I have never been noted for ingratiating myself with anybody or organisation .....

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#57 Post by Capetonian » Mon May 06, 2019 11:09 am

Yeah yeah!
I have never been noted for ingratiating myself with anybody or organisation
Me neither, so what?
When somebody resorts to dismissive bluster
Glass houses and all that.

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Re: Jeremy Corbyn defends Shamima Begum's right to legal aid

#58 Post by Krystal n Chips » Mon May 06, 2019 11:16 am

Capetonian wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:09 am
Yeah yeah!
I have never been noted for ingratiating myself with anybody or organisation
Me neither, so what?
When somebody resorts to dismissive bluster
Glass houses and all that.
Your many posts on here, and TOP, suggest otherwise....but, all you have to do is reply in depth to the views I have expressed in my posts regarding the death penalty.

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Thread Drift: death penalty

#59 Post by OFSO » Mon May 06, 2019 11:25 am

Every case should be judged individually: no set rules. I always ask myself would I, in person, be happy to turn up and push the button/pull the lever or whatever, myself, i.e. not deputise administering the lethal act to anyone else. If no, no death penalty. If yes (and it's pretty rare) I'm available.

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Re: Thread Drift: death penalty

#60 Post by G-CPTN » Mon May 06, 2019 11:49 am

OFSO wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:25 am
Every case should be judged individually: no set rules. I always ask myself would I, in person, be happy to turn up and push the button/pull the lever or whatever, myself, i.e. not deputise administering the lethal act to anyone else. If no, no death penalty. If yes (and it's pretty rare) I'm available.
Where do you stand WRT Begum?

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