Chaos in the UK

[Capetonian]

Sadly we live in an age where people think they can shut off and win an argument with the words :
"You are racist/anti-Semitic."
A friend of mine was accused of being 'racist' when she said she didn't like Indian food.
I like Chinese and Thai food but I don't like the Chinese or the Thais (for different reasons). Am I racist? If so, good.
I don't like the French or their food. The French are not a race, but I'm accused of 'racism' for saying that.

Calling 'racist/anti-Semitic' is the last resort of the loser.

I was accused of being anti-Semitic for refusing to go on a business trip to Israel and giving my reason as that I can't stand the Israelis.

[om15]

I always enjoyed my trips to Tel Aviv, interesting place and interesting people, everyone has a story to tell and it is a far more agreeable destination than any of the supposedly exciting Arab capitals.

I have had dealing with Jews working for leasing companies, banks and so on, my intense dislike of them may be due to their job and attitudes rather than racial reasons.

[ian16th]

The King David hotel in Jerusalem must have escaped your attention then.

Don't confuse the issue with facts.

[Rwy in Sight]

A key point, though, Bob, is that even if some Jews can be cantankerous or even obnoxious at times, you don't often read about them setting off bombs in public squares, killing scores of innocents, or shooting up nightclubs, again killing scores, not to mention flying airliners into skyscrapers, killing thousands of human beings.

The King David hotel in Jerusalem must have escaped your attention then.

A fair amount of water has gone under the bridge since the King David Hotel.

[Woody]

Granted RIS , just giving Ben an example.

[Rwy in Sight]

Being in the neighbourhood (with the extended meaning) I like Israel for two reasons (Cape agreed on the first one - unless he did it because I was offering a bier):

It is the only solid democracy in the Middle East (OK we can include Jordan but I am not too sure about it)
And second walking in Tel Aviv it feels much more safe and close to Western Standards than the rest of the Middle East. Plus although Israeli girls do not seem to meet either Slasher's or me they are nicer to see than some abaya dressed ones - which unfortunately become more common in Europe.

[BenThere]

The King David Hotel incident occurred as Jews were desperately trying to secure their homeland in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust. Jewry worldwide had been decimated and surviving Jews were understandably inclined to do what they deemed necessary for their survival and to establish a Jewish state where they might be safe after the ordeal of WWII. Their reality was much different than yours and mine.

While it's true innocent lives were lost, less than 100 I believe, it is one of those incidents in history, like the ouster of Mossadegh in Iran that the anti-West Left regurgitates with regularity to assign equivalency between marketplace bombings that occur with regularity in the Muslim world - ISIS beheadings, rape clubs in the UK, the World Trade Center atrocity - the daily chronicle of Muslim murders and other despicable acts against innocents is as reprehensible as anything the Zionists have done in their history, and they were legitimately and literally figghting for the survival of their people and culture. They are not equivalent, though that sentiment is not taught much to our kids. And I'm pretty sure if an accurate poll could be taken in Iran today the people would rather the Shah's dynasty would be back in power.

I think the big thing I don't like about Islam is that its doctrine teaches that it is good to lie to and even kill people who don't believe in and/or embrace Islam. That includes me.

[boing]

The Jewish State was born out of terrorism, expanded by a policy of " lebensraum " (and I use the word with irony) and protected by a policy of brutal retaliation based on a religion, that in its worst interpretation, is as extreme as Islam. We have no reason to support the State of Israel, a nation willing to capitalize on its greatest ethnic calamity for sympathy while treating the population of Gaza as PoW's.

On the other hand many Jews who have made their own diaspora I consider as very sound people and friends.

.

[BenThere]

My quibble with your view, boing, is that the violence around Israel always seems to be initiated by the Gaza/West Bank side and is generally terrorist, either random rocket attacks, suicide explosions at public venues, or attacks on individuals and households. Unless I'm misinfomed Israeli retaliations generally target terrorists and make an effort to avoid collateral damage and casualties.

Israel gave Gaza back, along with infrastructure, after it had captured it. Israel gave back the West Bank after it had captured it. Both were captured not by Israeli aggression but as a result of Israel being attacked by its Arab neighbors who thought they could drive Israel into the sea. Israel also gave back the Sinai which it had captured under the same circumstance.

All of the aggression and war in the Middle East since WWII as pertains to Israel has been initiated by the Arab Muslims surrounding Israel. Israel has taken defensive action such as destroying Iraq's nuclear facility at Osirak and the frequent Hezbollah offensive buildups to the North in Lebanon, true, but to me that is justifiable considering history.

[boing]

Gaza and the West Bank are "free" in name only. Both are subject to Israeli control.

Wkipedia puts the situation concisely.

Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[22] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt. Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[22] The system of control imposed by Israel is described as an "indirect occupation".[23] Some other legal scholars have disputed the idea that Israel still occupies Gaza. In addition, the extent of self-rule exercised in the Gaza Strip has led some to describe the territory as a de facto independent state.

.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The independence of Gaza is a joke without the necessary resources, and it is not economically self-supporting either. That it is dependent on Israel for water is something that will definitely need to be fixed. However, what do we see the Palestinians, or their allies doing to solve this problem?
They live in a literal sh!thole of their own making. All the raw sewage that has been dumped is now filtering back into the aquifer. They could do a lot to clear up their environment without any foreign aid, but they don't, and anyone who has visited the Sandpit will know what I'm on about. The provision of water, electricity, and all the rest within Gaza is subject to all the usual corruption and incompetence of the region.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... -ministry/
(n.b. the journalist won his appeal a month later)
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/water ... le-by-2020
And as for where all the money from outside goes, they'd rather buy rockets to fire at Israeli civilians than buy water pump maintenance tools.
So, I have no sympathy with the Palestinians. I regard it as axiomatic that one should help oneself first before asking for help from others, at every level from the individual to multinational organisations.

[Rwy in Sight]

And to continue F3WMB point maybe fellow Arabs treat Palestinians worst than Israelis do. Not sure if they do to put Israel in a bad light or they just want to keep them poor but they still don't help me at all.

[AtomKraft]

Well, I do have sympathy with them.

First the Jews wangled them out their country, then effectively isolated and imprisoned them.

Now they continue to persecute, subjugate and humiliate them.

If I was a Palestinian, I'd fight them until I was exhausted.

It's like being invaded by lawyers who legally steal your country from under you. Balfour declaration my ass!

[AtomKraft]

Just to add, I don't like the Jews and I couldn't give a flying F for the Palestinians either.

But there will be no peace as long as these idiots persist with their never bloody ending squabble- and I DO care about that!

[Pontius Navigator]

All of the aggression and war in the Middle East since WWII as pertains to Israel has been initiated by the Arab Muslims surrounding Israel.

Not true.

Israel was one of the attacking forces in the Suez Campaign. Israel conducted a pre-emptive attack on 1967. Israel conducted a war of attrition admittedly started by Egypt as a means to recover Sinai.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

RiS - number of muslim refugees or migrants admitted by Saudi Arabia (custodians of the two holy mosques) - zero
The Palestinians are in the same position as the Kurds. There is very little done by anyone for them either. There was very little done for the Jews when they had no state. After the genocides and attempted genocides throughout history, we can hardly blame any group for wanting their own state.
Whether or not we desire peace anywhere outside our own borders is immaterial; what's being done is making the situation worse, and has done for 70 years. Specifically, sending aid money is merely increasing the corruption, greed, infighting, and overpopulation which are making the situation worse. And the aid and the consequent wars are bankrupting the West also.
The West needs to wean itself off energy imports, by reducing energy consumption and developing alternative sources of energy. Then we can leave the ME to their camels and infighting.

[Rwy in Sight]

F3WMB, thanks for pointing out and you can include all the Gulf Co-operation Council on that 0 figure.

An effective form of assistance is to provide a shopping list with goods and arrange to be delivered to those in need - the corrupter heads of state can't get their hands on the assistance money. I understand US military assistance is quite good at creating jobs and helping less well off NATO countries.

[llondel]

On the other hand many Jews who have made their own diaspora I consider as very sound people and friends.

That's an important point to make: it is possible to be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. Too many people seem to consider that the former automatically means the latter.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Many of anti-Israelis seem to think Israel shouldn't exist as a State, rather than simply being against its policies and/or actions. It is difficult to separate them from being anti-Jewish.

Too many people automatically assume anyone who doesn't agree with them on anything must be a member of everything they despise these days. Being an older, white male, I am of course automatically a member of the Nazi party, as well as being responsible for all the ills of the world. Personally.

[Rwy in Sight]

As I have said before a female leftist sociologist friend used to called me fascist when explaining some reasonable facts like while I don't like anarchist destroying public and private property. Initially I was offended later I was looking forward to her doing so now she agrees with plenty the current conservative government is saying.