Trump and Iran.

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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: Trump and Iran.

#21 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat May 18, 2019 6:36 pm

Last I heard, the banana percentage was 50%. Among my science colleagues "Two bananas" was a typical description of someone whose apparent intelligence made you think the other 50% of their DNA was from a second banana ;)))

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#22 Post by Undried Plum » Sat May 18, 2019 7:18 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:17 pm
I think that none of the countries you've listed are democracies.
I pointed them out as exemplars of counter-democracy.

The US is a very pure example of fascism. The Roman exemplar, at its worst.

It is the antithesis of the Athenean model of democreotas.

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#23 Post by Undried Plum » Sun May 19, 2019 8:46 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:17 pm
What I am finding interesting is the gradual realisation by many citizens around the world that they are not living in the democracy they are told they are, and that it now matters.
I used to be surprised when Murricanes told me that they believed that US is a democracy. Almost all of 'em think that it is because they've been schooled, like well trained dogs, to believe it to be so.

The Brit version of democracy is wonky, as the Brexit thing has so painfully demonstrated. Separately, the continued existence of the House of "Lords" is an absurd anachronism which was made even worse by TBLiar's modification to it.

As for a 'written constitution', I think we are better off without it.

Same-same: Common Law.

Instead, let the Constitution develop and mature, unwrriiten as chemical formula, like a good wine or a better Whisky.

Look at that absurd rag that the Septics are trained to worship. The ill-considered and hastily cobbled together scribblings are quite idiot.

The fact that it had to be amended within a couple of years with a cut'n'paste job from the Bill of Rights, which is one of the few written bits of the Constitution which the amateurs were abandoning, shows how shambolic the immature 'revolutionary' rag actually was. Their revolution hadn't begun before the erks realised that they were being led by wankers.

It shows the superiority of Evolution over instant superiority.

Amendment 19, which prohibited the naturally occurring molecule C2H5O, shows how idiotic their constitution actually is.

The fact that they only gave votes to NRs in the 1960s also demonstrates how **** bassakward their constitution really is and demonstrates that their idea of "democracy" is a thin veneer of ***** which is lacquered by thick layers of *****.

Saudi isn't much better, but at least it doesn't pretend to be a democracy.

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#24 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun May 19, 2019 9:10 am

I think any written constitution is open to the abuse of political power, especially through distortion of the language, which allows new interpretations. However, an unwritten constitution allows far more abuse, it is like an untended wound festering, not a good wine maturing. That a constitution requires amendment is not unhealthy, but the amendments process is important. It should be discussed and voted on, rather than what happens at the moment. Politicians behave unconstitutionally (whether written or not) through the largely hidden mechanisms of 'policy' (rather than law), treasury funding, and statistical manipulation. Anything constitutional that they don't like becomes a bureaucratic nightmare to conduct, and anything unconstitutional they do like has inspection and enforcement mechanisms rendered ineffective. Gun control and immigration are the main topics du jour, but there's a host of others.

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#25 Post by AtomKraft » Sun May 19, 2019 9:27 am

I've been saying for years that democracy barely functions in the UK.
I stopped voting years ago because voting is tacit encouragement and endorsement which the UK system doesn't deserve.
Far too many of the constituencies hardly ever change control and if you vote for anyone but the winner, your vote counts for nothing.

Anyway, I'm glad that the BrExit fiasco has proven my point.

Perhaps FPTP has had its day? I think the Scottish system is way better, but something like it at least, should be considered now.

If the rise of Nigel Farages' new party is anything to go by, there might be some long overdue, but welcome changes coming.

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#26 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am

The problem is not FPTP, but that there is no obligation on whomever is elected, by whatever means, to represent the people who elected them. They aren't even answerable to any promises they have made to get elected.
Changes of the following nature are needed.
1. Recall legislation - for any reason.
2. No party whips
3. No lobbying
4. Real open government.

And along with that, the entire structure of legislating needs to be revised. There are too many laws, simply from a functional point of view, nevermind the expense and inefficiency. Every government puts more laws in place than they repeal, the political structure both allows and rewards politicians (and bureaucrats) for doing so, and the western world is headed for collapse as a result.

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#27 Post by AtomKraft » Sun May 19, 2019 10:49 am

Well Fox
I think we agree on more than we disagree.
I maintain FPTP is a part of the problem, but people forgetting about why they are there and for what purpose is also certainly a part of it.
Root and branch reform is the only way, and I hope for it.

Not holding me breath though....

A pox on the lot of them, and hoping for the best for Nigel.

Cometh the hour.....

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#28 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun May 19, 2019 11:30 am

The problem with FPTP, as with democracy itself, is that it's the worst system...apart from all the others. My little Province had a referendum on changing from FPTP just 3 weeks ago, and the vote scraped past 50% but didn't achieve the 60% and 2/3 of districts required for a change to Mixed Member Proportional. What was more obvious was that every urban district wanted MMR, and every rural district rejected it. And whilst Europe is a lot more urbanised than over here, it's quite clear to me from having lived in a few of the still rural parts of England, and living very rurally over here, that country folk are dead set against almost everything that's happening in cities, and the divide between urban and rural is deepening. Personally, I think the urban-rural divide is only just less important than the political divide between conservative and liberal which is polarising politics at the moment, and it deserves more attention than it's getting. Rural districts that went to all 3 parties, two of which supported MMR, voted against MMR, and the urban districts of all parties all voted for MMR.

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#29 Post by Undried Plum » Sun May 19, 2019 5:26 pm

Perhaps surprising to those who never went to Libya, their version of democracy actually worked.

Forget the Western propaganda. Gadaffi wasn't a dictator. Other than when he was a Colonel in the army which overthrew the UK/US puppet dictator Idris, he held no office.

It wasn't a one-party state. It was a no-party state. The reason why they forbad parties was because the country is an artifice which was created by the colonial powers of Europe who drew its borders on a map of mostly unsurveyed terrain. Just lines of Latitude and Longitude which showed no understanding of physical or human geography. There are three socially incompatible regions, each of which is intensely tribal and clannish. Political parties would inevitably align along tribal lines, so they abolished political parties and forced all candidates to run for office solely on the basis of their declared policies as individuals.

Every week every member of parliament had to set up a green baize table and a couple of chairs in the centre of his or her constituency and consult the constituents on what they wanted. You saw them all over every city and town and village, especially on Fridays. Any MP who let his constituents down was slung out of office at the next opportunity, so they tended to listen to their voters and carry out the instructions of the public. The Brexit thing is a crystal clear example of why we should adopt the Libyan form of democracy instead of bombing them.

The Empire's biggest military base in the whole of Africa was Wheelus AFB. They've never forgiven the Libyan people for flinging the bastards out of that base. To this day, The Empire's "Africa Command" is headquartered in West Germany, not in Africa at all. The fascist HQ, which is now Mitaga Airport, was taken over by Fascist America from their Italian counterparts. AfriCom is HQ'd in a formerly German fascist military base which was taken over by the occupation troops in 1945 and has never been returned to the German people. Some kind of symmetry there.

One of the most powerful tribes was the Gadaffa, the head of which took his name from his tribe. Guess who was The Empire's principal target. Another was the Megraha tribe. The head of which also took his name from his ilk. Yup. They stitched him up with totally fraudulent ***** and blamed him for the Iranian/Palestinian terror bombing of PA 103.

Libya, before the PA103 bollocks, had by far the best national health service in Africa and the best education on the continent. After decades of economic and other warfare from the deeply malicious US, the country is now totally ****.

The Iranians know very well who is in the crosshairs of fascist Warshington now.

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#30 Post by AtomKraft » Sun May 19, 2019 7:19 pm

That was quite an interesting post, UP.

Fox, what's the problem with the D'hondt system, as used in Scotland.
It seems to work mostly as planned?

Probably spelled it wrong, mind...

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#31 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun May 19, 2019 8:48 pm

The problems expressed to me here are nothing to do with the counting method. They are, roughly in order of priority
With MMP, individual districts get bigger, which reduces personal contact with the representative, means rural districts are more likely to have urban sections, and means it's more likely the candidate will be an urban dweller.
The party picks the list order, not the voters. This means one is more likely to get party apparatchiks being nominated, who in turn will vote with the party not the people they represent.
It makes it much harder for Independents to get elected.

As I say, the referendum vote here split exactly on urban vs rural, whatever the party chosen as the district MP equivalent. People out in the sticks are very concerned about the Tyranny of the Majority situation.

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Re: Trump and Iran.

#32 Post by Bob » Mon May 20, 2019 8:10 pm

UP I know its hard to resist but believe me its futile, reason left the shores of BennyLand a looooooooong time ago
I hereby declare the U.S.A. a Pariah state.
All U.S. Citizens or persons arriving from the U.S.A. will be denied access

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