Getting hot in the Gulf

[Boac]

According to the BEEB today, there are probably about "1 or 2 British Ship movements a day" in the area. Should be more than possible to arrange maritime protection (forget Typhoon), and any international co-operation should make that easier. Has someone cocked up? Why was Montrose so far away?

[Undried Plum]

Do they have recognised powers of arrest and the ability to fine or imprison the ships' captains?

Arrest, yes.

They do not have the ability to fine or imprison. That is for the Courts to do, but only after a trial or plea-bargain establishes guilt or the other thing.

I'm sure they will have records of the bad boys cutting the corners to prove their case.

I think you're probably right. They have at least two shore-based radar heads monitoring every part of the TSS and they have seaborne and airborne assets too. They also have the AIS data from the two ships which trespassed marginally on the Separation Zone of the TSS.

Montrose's crying wolf and conducting a local 'propaganda ploy' was all in vain.

The stunt failed, because the Iranians didn't bite the bait of the empty tanker leaving the Gulf that joint FCO/MoD/BP/Anglo-Iranian/Anglo-Persian plot entailed.

The stunt succeeded as a propaganda ploy, though, because the MSM are dutifully reporting the official line that it was a glorious victory in the annals of naval history as the plucky HMS Montrose arrived in the nick of time and saw off hordes of ignoble savages, thereby saving fair maidens from a fate worse than death at the hands of hordes of Moozlamic head-loppers.

It was actually a non-event, rather like the Tonkin Incident.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I don't know.
According to Cobham the triple carrier is supersonic carriage-capable
Guessing: probably limited to about M1.2 in practice given the drag from 18 of them. 'G' limit, again a guess, 5'g'.
The meteor missiles on the Typhoon should still give it first shot capability against anything the Iranians have, but it would need to jettison any remaining Brimstones if it needed to either continue to the merge or FOFP.

[ian16th]

it would need to jettison any remaining Brimstones

And they cost how much?

So I guess that they wont carry more that they need for each sortie.

[Rwy in Sight]

I saw the video or part of it with the Iranian forces descenting on the vessel. Quick question: how good they were? And how happy are you with the reactions of the RN asking Iranians to respect international law?

[Pontius Navigator]

And how happy are you with the reactions of the RN asking Iranians to respect international law?

Very.

You have to follow the rule book. It will be literally one step at a time. At each point you will need to check that they did not follow the rules, then give them the chance to amend their actions to comply.

Then responses must be proportionate. One might be to manoeuvre your vessel, after due warning, in such a manner as to cause them to change their own course of action. For instance an extreme manoeuvre that causes them to take avoiding action or even get bumped.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Possession is 10/10 of the law out there. Anything less than protection with force is pointless, although I do agree that a UN Resolution is needed first before military reprisals. Bear in mind people like Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe* are basically being held hostage in Iran until this is settled also.
Iran is screwed by oil sanctions, so sanctions aren't going to work without military enforcement. Does the UK/US want a war with Iran?
I see this as being the same as Japan pre-WW2, in that sanctions which are too harsh make military action on the part of the sanctionee inevitable. However, one might also argue that anything less would be ineffective. The Iranian Government spends its time at home chanting 'Death to America', so any attempt to reach a compromise, as with the Soviet Union, is doomed to failure. To me, the logical thing is to go bomb an Iranian oil refinery every time they try something like this, if UK/US are determined to enforce sanctions. It's the only language they understand.
Personally, and I've been saying this for 40 years, the west needs to reduce energy usage, become energy independent, and so not give a tinker's cuss what happens in the Sandpit. Having the UK/US Governments acting as the military wing of Exxon Mobil et al is causing far more hurt than it's worth. In fact I very much doubt it makes economic sense, except of course the taxpayers pay for the military and Exxon keeps the oil profits.


*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 07691.html

[barkingmad]

After USS Cole off Yemen incident I can't accept polite invitations to P F O being an acceptable form of defence for the threatened vessel.

And if our scarce multi-million pound warships are too few and too far away from the immediate threat posed (successfully) by a tin speedboat full of ING then let's take some swift action.

There must be many disciplined ex-forces unemployed veterans keen to get behind the sights of a .50 calibre weapon who'd jump at the opportunity to spend a few weeks bronzing in the Gulf and East African sunshine with the chance to exercise their honed skills at short notice.

So please on this forum cut the crap imagining the Royal Navy or the F-35s will ever be tasked or capable of deterring this sort of pirate activity.

[Undried Plum]

One good piece of news:

Saudi Arabia has released Iran's tanker Happiness 1 which had been 'detained' in Jeddah for weeks.

She'd broken down as a result of a burst pipe in the engine room on the 1st of May and was being charged extortionate harbour dues of $200k/day while she was unable to settle repair bills due to banking restrictions imposed by The Empire.

Her detention and release are mostly unrelated to the British capture of Grace 1, but the release today is most welcome and can only be helpful in the febrile atmosphere which is being engineered by the Pompeo/Bolton warmongers against Iran.

It's a very small step towards the resumption of Peace and prosperous Trade, but it's in the right direction.

[Undried Plum]

There must be many disciplined ex-forces unemployed veterans keen to get behind the sights of a .50 calibre weapon who'd jump at the opportunity to spend a few weeks bronzing in the Gulf and East African sunshine with the chance to exercise their honed skills at short notice.

There are plenty of tankers, and other cargo vessels, in the area which carry mercenaries as armed guards. They usually broadcast a statement to that effect on their AIS message string.

I doubt very much whether any of them would be capable of defending a tanker from a fast-roping assault from a helicopter by either Royal Marines or the Iranian equivalent thereof.

[barkingmad]

Plum, if you were a helo pilot as per the videos we're seeing in the meeja, would you be happy to hover over a cargo vessel whilst suspecting it could be defended by heavy calibre weapons borne by skilled operators?

Any helo or speedboat approaching without authentication or authorisation would be subject to post-USS Cole protocol, viz bugger off or yer toast-no questions asked.

[4mastacker]

On this evening's BBC News, a video was shown of the Stena Impero at anchor off Iran. It was pointed out that she is now flying a large Iranian flag. My understanding is that a ship visiting another country would fly the flag of the host country as a courtesy flag, but the courtesy flag should be smaller than the ensign of the country in which the ship is registered.

If the Iranian flag being flown is larger that that of the national ensign, could this be viewed as the ship has been taken as an act of piracy?

[FD2]

Plum:

The stunt failed, because the Iranians didn't bite the bait of the empty tanker leaving the Gulf that joint FCO/MoD/BP/Anglo-Iranian/Anglo-Persian plot entailed.

The stunt succeeded as a propaganda ploy, though, because the MSM are dutifully reporting the official line that it was a glorious victory in the annals of naval history as the plucky HMS Montrose arrived in the nick of time and saw off hordes of ignoble savages, thereby saving fair maidens from a fate worse than death at the hands of hordes of Moozlamic head-loppers.

Thanks - now I understand it all. Dastardly clever plot by all these conspirators you name ganging up against the innocent forces of kindly Iran, which only wants to bring peace throughout the Middle East. Plot seen through and countered by those brave chaps in the helicopter and their friends in the speedboats. No doubt they weren't carrying any weapons to an unarmed merchant ship on their peaseful mission. I'm sure the crew will be well looked after and put up in good hotels, while the investigations continue for as long as is necessary. Such a shame none of them actually appear to be British - better luck next time in their quest to improve international relations.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Their only chance of capturing a British crewed vessel is probably Fleetwood boating lake.

[Boac]

cut the crap imagining the Royal Navy or the F-35s will ever be tasked or capable of deterring this sort of pirate activity.

- I agree with the F-35s - they would be a complete waste of fuel and machinery - having seen MOD/HMG 'in action', getting permission to loose off ordnance would take so long the little bastards would be alongside and thus untouchable, and hitting the helo would risk the ship. Absolutely no reason why a RN Captain cannot be there, 'on site', with executive powers and able to take immediate action without referral.

I think we missed a trick or two. Mind you, barking's 'swarthy ex-mil toughies' are a good solution too. 'Don't know what happened, Sir - the helicopter just seemed to burst into flames as it got closer'

[FD2]

Arnie managed to lug around a 'portable' minigun in 'Alien' but something on those lines could well take out a helicopter at a distance it posed no threat to the ship. Not in any way my area of expertise as I don't know if such a thing exists outside Hollywood - I'm fantasising perhaps - but at least some projectiles would hit the machine and it only takes one in the right place, like the pilot's head or the tail rotor. Otherwise decent calibre machine guns x6 or x8 around the ship manned by people who can aim right.

[barkingmad]

Hopefully someone who's actually been at the stock end of a mil-spec .50 calibre rifle or MG will attest to its effectiveness against tin speedboats and/or helos.

And most importantly, it's cheap to deploy and operate.

In the OM at Lossiemouth in the early 70s the comment was you could launch 2 or 3 Hawker Hunters with similar bomb loads for the price of 1 Sepecat Jaguar ground gripper.

Please let's keep the solution to the problem simple and easy to implement.

Look at what's happened to Mr Boeing.............!!

[Undried Plum]

Are people here seriously considering the absurd prospect of having oil/gas-laden tankers shoot their way through the Straights of Gibraltar/Hormuz/Mandeb etc?


"an act of piracy"

The only difference between Piracy and Privateering is the absence or presence of a Letter of Marque. You can be sure that the commandos who assaulted Grace 1 and Stena Impero had the modern equivalent of Letters of Marque. Ergo, neither was a case of "Piracy".

[John Hill]

I think those clever Iranians are making their opening moves in a nice game of 4D chess!

[Pontius Navigator]

I have seen the effect of air-gnd heli strafe: very much spray and pray. I have seen the bullet holes in HMS Antrim's Wessex. It is in the museum with each hole marked. Riddled but no vital part hit including the soft and squwishy SLF.

Now add your onboard guards. A second helo could stand off and give suppressive fire.

As mentioned, once there is a risk of the Helo crashing on deck, game over.

It could work but by no means could you guarantee success.