Chaos in USA

[PHXPhlyer]

While President Llondel does have a certain ring to it Fox3 is correct.

PP

[tango15]

You can always apply for US citizenship.

Not for Prez. Must be natural-born, not just a Citizen.
Hence no President Schwarzenegger.

I note Taylor Swift, who has made over a billion dollars singing about her appalling choices in men....is endorsing Biden

Dragging the thread back, kicking and screaming, onto topic - I've seen a report that the Israelis would expect more funding if Trump became Prez.

What a pity! Logical, I suppose.

I think the Israelis (for which read Netanyahu) couldn't care less. They will do what they want to do. I gather from watching Al Jazeera earlier that they are, in effect, forcing everyone into the Rafah region. One last push?

[Dushan]

The worrying thing is that at the moment he appears in way better health and way less senile than his likely opponent. Even Haley is casting doubt on Trump's mental state at this point, although of course she has a vested interest.

Seriously? That's what you see? Trump is batšit crazy, but it's all a put-on for the masses. His mental and physical state cannot be compared to a bumbling-stumbling Biden who cannot put two coherent thoughts together and doesn't which way is up or out.

You clearly see it differently to me then. If it's a put-on for the masses then he should damn well have stopped doing it while he was President, and perhaps he'd have gotten re-elected. I'd prefer neither of them, but based on what I see of the two of them, Biden is the more coherent at this point. It doesn't say much for Trump's base if they think someone acting like that would make a good president.

I actually wonder if either of them will be around in four years.

He would have been re-elected had there been no cheating, all kinds of shenanigans, wuhan-sniffles made to look like the plague, and legacy media working against him. He did more for the country in 4 years than Biden did in 47 years sucking on the public teat.

[llondel]

He would have been re-elected had there been no cheating, all kinds of shenanigans, wuhan-sniffles made to look like the plague, and legacy media working against him. He did more for the country in 4 years than Biden did in 47 years sucking on the public teat.

This probably ought to be in a different thread by now, but there was no cheating at a level that would have changed the result. No one has managed to come up with any credible proof, and I find it hard to believe that it could have been achieved on the scale some people think was necessary and no one can find solid evidence.

[Dushan]

Yeah, sure..

[talmacapt]

Two points from me about the US election.

How a country with umpty million people cannot find at least one candidate other than Biden and/or Trump amazes me.

The Finnish (about 4 million voters) presidential election had, at the initial round 9 candidates, 5 no hopers and 3/4 with a chance.

I, as a European, worry about Trump being elected (although I think he is the better of the two) as he seems to be an isolationist.

Will NATO have to wait until there is a "Pearl Harbour" moment to cause the US to get involved in, what some commentators suggest, is the upcoming European war.

[bob2s]

A poll from 2023 gives an insight into what some voters think of Biden and Trump. What amazed me was the statement of some saying they would not
bother to vote for either candidate, which in my opinion takes away their right to complain if it ever goes t--s up.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/a ... -norc-poll

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

What if you fundamentally disagree with the policies of both (or in other elections, all) the candidates?

Voting for idiots only encourages them.
Not voting also lets better potential candidates know that there are votes to be had next time.

And, if one doesn't co-operate with the unwanted candidate's government, including not working for it, then their policies will be highly limited and possibly nullified.
It's the equivalent of personal shunning.

I ask because in quite a few places in North America, this is increasingly happening.
Governments, from national to local, can't do things if no one co-operates.
That's certainly true where I am.
Of course, one rarely hears about this because the media won't report it, not because it isn't happening.

[llondel]

What if you fundamentally disagree with the policies of both (or in other elections, all) the candidates?

As far as I know you can write in a name, so you're voting for someone who isn't either of them. Of course, you are effectively abstaining, but you did at least turn up to vote. I have submitted a deliberately-spoiled ballot in the UK before now because I didn't want to vote for any of the candidates but consider that turning up to vote is important.

[ExSp33db1rd]

How a country with umpty million people cannot find at least one candidate other than Biden and/or Trump amazes me.

Absolutely.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

As you note, write-ins are pointless.
What my University did for student elections was to have Re-Open Nominations (RON) as an option on the ballot paper.
If RON won, none of the first set of candidates were allowed to run in the subsequent re-elections.
It worked.
A second essential element in a representative democracy is that it is possible to get rid of representatives who do not. Recall mechanisms are required for ALL elected positions.
And I think the third is the Swiss system where referenda can be proposed and voted for directly from the people, not from the representatives.
Finally, term limits for both individual positions, and total in elected public service - there should be no career politicians.

[llondel]

As you note, write-ins are pointless.
What my University did for student elections was to have Re-Open Nominations (RON) as an option on the ballot paper.
If RON won, none of the first set of candidates were allowed to run in the subsequent re-elections.
It worked.
A second essential element in a representative democracy is that it is possible to get rid of representatives who do not. Recall mechanisms are required for ALL elected positions.
And I think the third is the Swiss system where referenda can be proposed and voted for directly from the people, not from the representatives.
Finally, term limits for both individual positions, and total in elected public service - there should be no career politicians.

I think it is important to make the effort to turn out to vote, but there has to be an effective abstention method if none of the options are acceptable, and it should be recorded.

My university had RON on the ballots too, the trouble is when RON keeps winning and no one gets elected, which I could see happening in some places. Mostly I vote for "least worst" because there's one (or more) that I really don't want to win.

I am in favour of term limits, it means we lose a few good ones, but an awful lot of dead wood would go too.

Individual states in the US have recall mechanisms for state-level posts, but it's not an option for federal-level positions.

I disagreed with Tony Benn on a lot of things, but he nailed this bit, especially the last one:

"What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

the trouble is when RON keeps winning and no one gets elected, which I could see happening in some places.

Why is this trouble?

If a riding doesn't want any of the candidates that seek to represent it, then they don't get representation.
If they want representation and their effective local conditions mean no one is offering who is acceptable, then the local electorate need to change their expectations/conditions until someone suitable does offer.

We had this at my University with the Student Union bar treasurer position one year.
After RON won twice, the Student Union reduced the hours for the position and, crucially, got rid of the personal liability they had just tried to add to the position.
A suitable candidate presented for the third election and was elected by a handsome majority, since the bar had remained closed without a treasurer.
Politics is the art of the possible. It always involves compromise.
What's missing at the moment is that the government has to be prepared to compromise with the electorate, not just the other way around.

We currently have governments worldwide, local to national, who are not prepared to admit they have completely screwed up, but are still insisting that everyone does things their way.
Well, it's not happening. Can't recruit for the Armed Forces, can't get enough medical staff, the school system is increasingly unfit for purpose, etc.
And the Rant of the Day thread shows it's not just the big things that are failing.
There are a lot of good people who could be doing these jobs, of all ages, but they are not prepared to accept the current conditions set by government. Nevermind that government refuses to hire them anyway.
Well, by definition, we now have governments that are full of incompetent politicians, in that they are unable to admit fault and compromise.
So, inevitably, the entire system will fail without a change by one group or the other.

The catch is, the good people can survive without the incompetent government, but the same is not true the other way around.
Every crisis is handled so poorly by government that the frequency and negative consequences of them are, and will inevitably, increase.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Speak of the Devil!

Nikki Haley loses to ‘none of these candidates’ option in Nevada primary

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... a-primary/

[llondel]

Speak of the Devil!

Nikki Haley loses to ‘none of these candidates’ option in Nevada primary

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... a-primary/

I was just reading an article on that and having a quiet snigger in the corner. Embarrassing for her.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

especially when it was effectively None of the Above Candidate

[llondel]

especially when it was effectively None of the Above Candidate

I think there were some (other) no-hopes on the ballot too.

[llondel]

This one seems appropriate, called out by one of their own.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I think there were some (other) no-hopes on the ballot too.

Already withdrawn candidates. Only Haley was still running.

Or do they keep all the withdrawn candidates on the list for all the dead voters on the voter roll?

[llondel]

I think there were some (other) no-hopes on the ballot too.

Already withdrawn candidates. Only Haley was still running.

Or do they keep all the withdrawn candidates on the list for all the dead voters on the voter roll?

I think it's based on when the ballots are printed and mailed out, there comes a point at which someone is still on the ballot even if dead. Dead people have won before now, too.