Chaos in USA

[John Hill]

I do not see that John has any worthwhile practical experience of anywhere else in the World other than New Zealand.

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[Undried Plum]

I do not see that John has any worthwhile practical experience of anywhere else in the World other than New Zealand.

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Where else matters in such matters?

[John Hill]

So boing, you obviously think you are more widely travelled than I?

[John Hill]

This is getting tiresome John. Death and loss of land has been taking place since the beginning of recorded history and, I am sure before that, despite the fact that the population of the World was minuscule at the time. Simply look at your Utopia of North Korea, tell me who actually, genuinely, owns property in their own name and explain why people are dying so that the country can develop a nuclear programme that is ineffectual and 20 years behind the bigger players.

People are dying in the DPRK partly because their country is in a 70+ year covert war with the USA where forced isolation and economic strangulation are the Septic's weapons of choice.

Look at how much that country and its population would benefit from a good invasion, it could hardly get worse.

Your country has already tried invasion and ended up in an embrassing rout, how much better it would be if you tried again now that they have nuclear weapons?

[boing]

In the long term the Romans did the English a favour. I went to school on what was the Watling Street (was the A5 but that was by-passed around the town). The Romans built the road 2,000 years prior and it was still one of the strongest road beds around the area, better than all of the Middle Ages cart tracks. One of the small local towns used to be Manduessedum, the Roman fort being Manduessedum Castra. There were a few unpleasant times but that's show business and England came out the better for it. You could also say 1066 was a rather embarrassing but useful learning experience if you remember that the invaders were really Vikings not Frogs. Even the little bit of trouble with the Vikings themselves taught England something.

Even our supposedly jingoistic friend Kipling wrote a charming and conciliatory account concerning the aftermath of 1066 in "Puck of Pook's Hill", he also praised the Indians.

You get your knowledge from the locals not the politicians, press and power seekers. I've regularly drunk beer in dim Nairobi bars where, as the joke goes, you never know who is there until they smile, I've seen the source of the Blue Nile and the Addis Ababa souks, I've spent time at Victoria Falls, I've hunted the forest east of Lake Taupo in NZ, I've hunted near Condobolin and west of Toowoomba in Oz, I've shared tea with a solitary individual arab under a tent in a dry stream bed west of Riyadh, I've eaten lamb off a tray in the desert and been served by a Prince because that was his custom and duty. I've drunk beer with two older Italian ski instructors when they and I never had a common language but we managed just fine and ended up getting ratted together. Have you tried telling a joke when you don't speak the other persons language, we managed. By the way, they hated Germans.

The only time you get trouble with any other person is if one of you enters the interaction with an ugly pre-existing bias otherwise a friendly and natural response is all you need.

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[John Hill]

Thank you for the kind advice on how to conduct oneself for a pleasant experience in foreign lands.

[boing]

No John, people in North Korea are dying because their lunatic leader insists on threatening other nations and insisting on producing weapons that will be useless even if they work. If it was not for international repercussions the US could wipe out NK's weapon production facilities in minutes with conventional weapons, they would not need to engage in a nuclear attack. Since an attack is not at this time an option other means of pressuring the NK government are needed. Unfortunately this does not work too well since the NK leadership prefer to let their people die rather than give up their megalomaniac weapons program. Economic strangulation is not the weapon of choice it is the only practical option at this time. You can rest assured the US would much rather carry out a surgical strike on the weapons centres if this was politically practical. You will note that even NKs most distant missile launch site is only 60 miles from the coast, you could virtually throw a rock on it, 15 mins. flight time for even an old generation cruise missile, the NKs wouldn't have time to get their boots on before the missiles hit.

You will also note that the major NK launch sites are closer to China than the East coast, why should this be? Because the NK wants to ensure that any attack on the sites would upset the Chinese to the maximum amount possible and they hope that these locations will give them some protection.

Your point about nuclear weapons is invalid. NK still does not have a missile capable of inflicting more that minimal damage to the US, just enough to piss them off unless you are suggesting that NK would nuke its own people to blunt an attack, which is entirely possible.

Yes John, I can absolutely guarantee that I have visited more countries in the World than you have. You don't think I spent all of 42 years pushing airliners around the World without enjoying some of the benefits?

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[John Hill]

No John, people in North Korea are dying because their lunatic leader insists on threatening other nations and insisting on producing weapons that will be useless even if they work.

Threatening is a two way street and the DPRK has been under threats since the country was founded. The US has threatened North Korea with nuclear weapons since 1953. For some strange reason you think it was OK for the Septics to do that but not for them to develop countermeasures?

Yes John, I can absolutely guarantee that I have visited more countries in the World than you have. You don't think I spent all of 42 years pushing airliners around the World without enjoying some of the benefits?

I don't doubt it and I also know that (it is said) travel broadens the mind but unfortunately it also causes the mind to be shallowed.

[Undried Plum]

Your country has already tried invasion and ended up in an embrassing rout

Faackk! I 'ate it wen that 'appens.

Wot next?

[John Hill]

Your country has already tried invasion and ended up in an embrassing rout

Faackk! I 'ate it wen that 'appens.

Wot next?

Find another fly-speck country and invade them instead.

[boing]

Actually John, if you check, you will find that the Korean War was caused by the North attacking the South and the US was part of a United Nations action to protect South Korea consisting of several other counties..

I will give you the Wikipaedia version for simplicity.

Both governments of the two new Korean states claimed to be the sole legitimate government of all of Korea, and neither accepted the border as permanent.

North Korean military (Korean People's Army (KPA)) forces crossed the border and drove into South Korea on 25 June 1950. The United Nations Security Council denounced the North Korean move as an invasion and authorized the formation of the United Nations Command and the dispatch of forces to Korea to repel it.

Your claim that the US has ever invaded Korea is utter rubbish and clearly illustrates your blindly lefty partisanship. The US has never invaded Korea, it was in the country by agreement to protect South Korea from the communist North and, as it turns out, it was a good job it was there at the time of the surprise North Korean attack.

Do you get that John? The US has never invaded either Korea.


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[boing]

Here is your invasion contingent John.

Sixteen UN nations supplied fighting units and five sent military hospitals and field ambulances. Australia was one of the very first to contribute military personnel from all three services. The single largest UN contributor was the United States of America (USA) which at one stage had 140,000 personnel deployed in direct combat roles in Korea.
Great Britain,
Canada,
France,
Belgium,
the Netherlands,
Colombia,
Ethiopia,
South Africa,
New Zealand,
Turkey,
Greece,
Thailand,
Philippines
and Luxembourg
----sent fighting units.
Norway,
Sweden,
Denmark,
India,
Italy
----contributed military hospitals and field ambulances to the cause.

Oh, these people were so evil invading poor, peaceful, North Korea. Didn't they realize it was just a random bunch of NK soldiers who got lost on a Sunday picnic? I bet Colombia and the Philippines were slavering for their share of the spoils and Luxembourg must have really wanted a small North Korean village so that it could double its size..

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[John Hill]

Do you get that John? The US has never invaded either Korea.
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Perhaps that is your version of history but you have been misled.

The ship General Sherman attempted to force their way up the Taedong river to Pyongyang, they failed and none of the crew got to see their homeland again. A failed invasion attempt.

[boing]

For Heaven's sake John. I had to look that up. The incident was in 1866.

You really are scratching for justification.
Lincoln had been assassinated one year previously.
Andrew Jackson was the President.
The US Capitol building was not yet complete.
The US Civil War had finished one year previously.
The California Gold Rush had taken place ten years before, the Western US was still barely populated.

Whoever decided to sail a ship up the river must have been totally insane and it is unlikely that they were following Government instructions because the early attempts at radio did not take place until 1890.

Get real.

Edited to add Lincoln assassination as this is a better known event to most people.
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[John Hill]

Don't behave like such an idiot, you said the US had never invaded Korea but as I showed you they did but you are pretending that did not count as it happened so long ago! You are also saying it must have been the act of an insane captain without Government instructions, maybe, but an invasion none the less.

So now you can tell us about the invasion of 1871. The expeditionary force that set out for Korea from China included over 1,200 sailors and Marines and five ships: USS Colorado, USS Alaska, USS Palos, USS Monocacy, and USS Benicia, as well as a number of smaller support vessels. Were those vessels sailing without US government authority? That invasion failed too but not before killing hundred of Koreans.

That is two invasions of Korea by the USA, just for starters.

[boing]

The second "federal" force was sent to investigate and if necessary punish the Koreans for the General Sherman event, it was not as you call it an invasion. What do you think that 1200 military personnel were going to do thousands of miles away from home with limited supply options?

It may interest you to consider that the original General Sherman event was not government sponsored, it was the work of a private business man, apparently you could equip an armed ship in those days by one means or another. The General Sherman was not government sponsored and the ship carried no American military personnel. The business man's intent was to open business activities with Korea, an offer which the Koreans refused and his non-approved continuation up the river was what led to the destruction of his party. Like 'phone salesmen he simply could not take no for an answer. The voyage was in no way what could be considered an invasion, one ship with no trained combat personnel and one cannon that could not be removed from the ship was hardly an invasion force.

It is true that the US government wished to force the Koreans to open trade with the US but quite obviously the size of the second force could do no more than sail up the river and put on a show. Clearly once the troops left the safety of the ships they could be quite effective for a limited time and distance but they were not going very far with limited ammunition and supplies and this was the case. I suppose on the technicality that this US force simply went ashore in Korea this could be called an invasion but in fact it was more accurately a border incursion because there was no possibility and no intent that the Korean state could be toppled by such a small force. What the US government would have been satisfied with is a trading post in a convenient location, they were not interested in running the country.

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[John Hill]

Oh right, I see, half a dozen ships with soldiers and guns forcing their way in and shooting a few hundred people is only a piffling border incident?

So what do you call this?




Landing craft shuttling back and forth in Inchon harbour!

Was that some sort of goodwill, show the flag, visit?

[Undried Plum]

The Empire invaded Korea.

Korea did not invade The Empire.

How much simpler can that situation be expressed?

Even the Greeks and the Romans could understand that. So why don't the Dolts understand it?

[John Hill]

Dolts are thick....

[boing]

Landing craft shuttling back and forth in Inchon harbour!

Was that some sort of goodwill, show the flag, visit?

John, what are you talking about? The General Sherman and subsequent events took place on the Taedong River which is in what is now North Korea and provides access to Pyonyang. The photo you show is, by your description, landing craft in the Inchon Harbor which is in what is now South Korea and provides access to Seoul.

The photo you show is of McArthur's landing at Inchon during the Korean War which was an important event in defeating the invasion of the South by the North. You are featuring an invasion alright but it is by the North Koreans on South Korea with those vessels operating on behalf of the South Korean nation and under United Nations approval.

John, you are totally flipped out and grabbing at straws to support you fantasy view of the World.

If I wanted to truly invade North Korea I would do it through Wonsan not Inchon.

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